Damage to Arion's sail

  • 05 Nov 2015 07:10
    Reply # 3617382 on 3607013
    As I said, somewhere in this thread, we are all learning.  Zebedee has put in a lot of miles since building his sails in Trinidad: he's had a few boltrope issues and managed to break one (or both - maybe the second was just damaged) yards, which may, or may not, have something to do with the cambered sails.  (Alan is presently in the islands: I'm sure he'll write up his latest experiences and thoughts when he comes back to NZ).

    All the cloths we use have issues: Dacron/Terylene/polyester generally doesn't like the sun; Odyssey it would appear doesn't like stress; acrylic is susceptible to chafe (but it does stay localised).  You pays your money and you takes your choice.  However, I do feel that we are discussing fabric failure far more now, then we did when everyone had flat sails (and, let's be fair, no Internet connections!)

    We are all thinking and intelligent people (obviously! we have junk rig), and at the end of the day, we need to weigh the evidence from people who have done the miles with different sails and canvas and make our own decisions, based on our intentions, realities and - let's not forget - bank balances.

    The rig is still cheaper and more forgiving than any alternative that I know of :-) and I'd never sail for more than an afternoon with anything else. 

  • 05 Nov 2015 05:50
    Reply # 3617319 on 3617180


    David Tyler wrote:

    Paul,

    I first made cambered acrylic sails for Ivory Gull, and they've lasted twenty years, although I think the new owner is making new ones. Badger had acrylic sails for a great many ocean miles, albeit not cambered. My mistake with making a cambered acrylic sail initially for Tystie was only partly to do with the choice of cloth, and more to do with design matters, and the sheer size of the sail. The sail was to a more or less Hasler McLeod design and the top panels were way too big. I used cable ties to fasten the battens, as per Tom Colvin's recommendations, and they broke, and chafed the sail. Pockets would have been OK. 

    No, for small sails on low mileage boats, there's not much wrong with acrylic. It's as dimensionally stable as these coated cloths.

    You haven't sailed enough miles yet to see what I've seen on my Mustang sail. In way of the mast, the chafe had rubbed away the coloured coating, exposing the white, loosely woven cloth, after 7000 miles. Since I'm making the sail narrower for the ketch rig, I've been able to cut away this portion of the sail, but I've wondered how long the cloth would have lasted, had I continued to do a lot of ocean miles.

    David,

    True I have not. Neither have you volunteered the information that you now share (for which I thank you) before. I can only speak about what I have personal experience of.

    Bearing in mind what you have written, what would you now then recommend for larger sails because I am now naturally concerned as I of cause need sails that I can be confident will last me for a circumnavigation.

  • 05 Nov 2015 04:08
    Reply # 3617283 on 3607013

    Ouch!  After a 10 mile beat in gusty 15-20 knot winds, Arion's sail has torn again.  Once more, I can pull the fabric apart with my fingers.  That's it for me.  I now intend to retire the sail and bend on my flat Dacron sail until I have decided what to do next.  I guess we've learned something, though I am regretting not taking my sailmaker, Russell's, advice to build it out of 5oz Dacron. It is a material I know and trust, and I know for sure I would have got at least three times the life out of it.  You live and learn.

    PS:  I had forgotten about David Tyler's acrylic cambered sail.  Given that it suffered from stretch and chafe problems, if I remember correctly, I assume the material may be more suited to smaller, flat sails.  Badger sailed many happy miles with hers.  I'm inclined towards Dacron because i can put stickyback tape on it until I get to port and a sailmaker (I am very clumsy with needlework!), but will watch this subject with interest.  I don't plan to build a new sail this summer, just use my flat Dacron one.

    Last modified: 05 Nov 2015 06:36 | Anonymous member
  • 05 Nov 2015 01:44
    Reply # 3617180 on 3607013

    Paul,

    I first made cambered acrylic sails for Ivory Gull, and they've lasted twenty years, although I think the new owner is making new ones. Badger had acrylic sails for a great many ocean miles, albeit not cambered. My mistake with making a cambered acrylic sail initially for Tystie was only partly to do with the choice of cloth, and more to do with design matters, and the sheer size of the sail. The sail was to a more or less Hasler McLeod design and the top panels were way too big. I used cable ties to fasten the battens, as per Tom Colvin's recommendations, and they broke, and chafed the sail. Pockets would have been OK. 

    No, for small sails on low mileage boats, there's not much wrong with acrylic. It's as dimensionally stable as these coated cloths.

    You haven't sailed enough miles yet to see what I've seen on my Mustang sail. In way of the mast, the chafe had rubbed away the coloured coating, exposing the white, loosely woven cloth, after 7000 miles. Since I'm making the sail narrower for the ketch rig, I've been able to cut away this portion of the sail, but I've wondered how long the cloth would have lasted, had I continued to do a lot of ocean miles.

  • 04 Nov 2015 23:50
    Reply # 3617086 on 3617018
    Graham Cox wrote:
    Paul Thompson wrote:

    BTW I think going back to acrylic/sunbrella will be a serious mistake on your part.

    Well, it will be the first ever cambered acrylic sail, so that should be interesting.  I say go for it Annie in the name of science!

    If I build another sail I might make it out of Topgun, as I was quite impressed with how strong it felt when I looked at Neville Saunder's sail in Mooloolaba.  It felt very different to Odyssey.  Coated both sides too, so better UV protection.

    However, unless I find further deterioration in other parts of Arion's sail, I'll just beef up the top panel further if necessary, assuming that the problem was caused by stress, and not just self-inflicted chafe, pinching the sail between the preventer and the yard.  So far, there is no sign of deterioration elsewhere.

    Arion is a heavy boat and likes to be driven hard, so I press my sail to the limit.  It will be interesting to see how it holds up.  Ketil obviously drives Marie G hard too.  What is his sail made from?


    Graham, David Tyler built a cambered sail from acrylic... it did not work well, albeit it was a lot larger than what Annie is proposing to do. Acrylic is very prone to chafe and it's not dimensionally stable... so it's unlikely to hold it's shape well.

    My sails are Mustang which falls between Odyssey and Top Gun and so far (two years, no sail covers) they show no deterioration what so ever. LC is a heavy boat at 8.5 tons and I sail her very hard because if anything is going to break (and nothing has) I was to know now before I set off on my big adventure.

    I had full sail up in 25kts+ broad reaching and running on the way from Auckland to Whangarei when I went up for Annie's birthday party. I was seeing north of 8 kts  and that is really going for a boat of LC's sort.

    So far I'm really happy with the rig, the sails and the boats performance. There are issues that I'm having to sort but the rig and sails are not one of them.

    BTW, To the best of my knowledge, Ketil's sails are Odyssey however Arne can confirm that.

    Last modified: 04 Nov 2015 23:53 | Anonymous member
  • 04 Nov 2015 22:26
    Reply # 3617018 on 3616818
    Paul Thompson wrote:

    BTW I think going back to acrylic/sunbrella will be a serious mistake on your part.

    Well, it will be the first ever cambered acrylic sail, so that should be interesting.  I say go for it Annie in the name of science!

    If I build another sail I might make it out of Topgun, as I was quite impressed with how strong it felt when I looked at Neville Saunder's sail in Mooloolaba.  It felt very different to Odyssey.  Coated both sides too, so better UV protection.

    However, unless I find further deterioration in other parts of Arion's sail, I'll just beef up the top panel further if necessary, assuming that the problem was caused by stress, and not just self-inflicted chafe, pinching the sail between the preventer and the yard.  So far, there is no sign of deterioration elsewhere.

    Arion is a heavy boat and likes to be driven hard, so I press my sail to the limit.  It will be interesting to see how it holds up.  Ketil obviously drives Marie G hard too.  What is his sail made from?


  • 04 Nov 2015 20:03
    Reply # 3616818 on 3607013


    Annie, you certainly did not make your sail from left over fabric, it was a new roll. You joined pieces together so we could keep the waft a right angles to the leach and not waste to much fabric in the process.

    BTW I think going back to acrylic/sunbrella will be a serious mistake on your part.

  • 04 Nov 2015 19:21
    Reply # 3616762 on 3607013
    Arne: Fantail's sail was the first one I'd ever made and I was making it out of leftover fabric, which meant that I had to join quite a few pieces together for each panel.  I suspect my sewing is more than a little responsible for some of the creases! 

    With a lightweight mast and no rigging, in concert with the fact that the sail is so quick and easy to rig, I'm not sure that the HAR/LAR argument is quite so pertinent for junk rig.  After all HAR junk rig probably  has a mast about the same length as a medium aspect ration bermudian rig.  Anyway, I'm going to try taller and skinnier this time, which, will allow me to keep the sheets out of the cockpit.  If it doesn't work, I'll think again: after all, I will have the mast in a tabernacle, so can easily lower it and saw a few feet off, and it only takes a week to make a new sail.  She said, casually :-)

    And in answer to your last question: have a look here
  • 04 Nov 2015 03:58
    Reply # 3614946 on 3607013

    I've sewn a patch of Odyssey on either side of my damaged area, tying it into the leech tabling and the peak reinforcing patch (which is quite substantial).  The damaged area was about 50mm below this reinforcing patch and parallel to its lower edge.  I was able to tear it with one finger until I got to the end of the damaged area, after which the cloth seemed strong.  I've never been able to tell how strong my sail is as the material is so alien to my experience.  It is so light and soft, and when the sun shines behind it, it looks porous!  You almost need sunglasses to look at it!  Having never looked at the material before telling my sailmaker to use it, I was quite shocked when the sail arrived.

    Because I have decided to remain in Broken Bay and adjacent coastal waters this summer, I will just watch the sail and see what happens next.  If I was going to go offshore, I think I'd either bend on my flat Dacron sail or think about a new sail.

    I think any problem lies with the material rather than camber in the sail, at least with these H/M type sails.  The first thing my bermudian friends say, when they come sailing on Arion, is how lightly loaded everything is, compared to their rigs.  Perhaps the peak and throat are exceptions.  I tore the throat of my sail the first time I went sailing, when I was lowering the sail and Arion rolled violently, allowing the yard to surge back and forwards.  I then substantially strengthened both the throat and peak.  These days I run the YHP and the THP through rope clutches and keep the slack out of them as I lower the sail, which keeps the yard under control.  It seems obvious that a flat junk sail will spread the loads more evenly, however even a cambered sail spreads the loads out over all its battens, unlike a bermudian sail which concentrates loads at the tack, clew and head, or throat and peak in a gaff sail.  And as Arne points out, our sails have little load on the tack and clew.  Perhaps Topgun is a more suitable material, being heavier, or acrylic, or Dacron, if you keep it under a cover.

    I am happy enough to experiment inshore, but if my health permits me to sail offshore again (the eternal optimist!), I want a rig that is reliable!  If the sail was easier to rig and unrig, I'd have two sails, a light, cambered one for inshore work and a heavier, vertical seamed, flat sail for offshore.  There is no doubt, having sailed with both types of sail on Arion, that my cambered sail makes the boat come alive when sailing inshore in light winds and smooth water.  Arion is an absolute joy to sail in these conditions, tacking confidently into crowded bays, ghosting along in the slightest breezes.  I am willing to keep experimenting for that reward.

  • 03 Nov 2015 21:41
    Reply # 3614576 on 3607013
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Dear Annie

    More stress in cambered panels?
    I have seen some photos of your Fantail. It appears that there quite often are some big creases in her top panel, something I just about never have seen on my boats.

    I could think of two reasons for this:

    ·         The next to triangular, two top panels that I use will simply not allow the battens or yard to shift back or forth, so creases cannot build up.

    ·         A little camber in the top panels, as I use, seem to reduce, not add loads in the cloth, since the load moves out to the bolt ropes in baggy panels. This happens in all the panels  -  I just have to set up the running parrels (THP + YHP) right, and also the fixed ones (HKP) to avoid diagonal creases. If one cuts a panel flat, there will be little help from the boltrope, in daily use. The sailcloth will take most of the loads, anyway.

    To rip or not to rip...
    The Odyssey certainly is rip-stop-woven, but no cloth which has reached the brittle stage that you and Graham describe, will resist anything. That is why I suggested the false vertical seams.

    High or Low AR
    From a handling point of view, I like the hi-AR sails, as long as there is room for the sheets (very steep sheet angle is not so good). However, there is an old rule among yacht designers to keep the rig low, unless the ballast is of the deep-set and outside type. SIB-LIM’s ballast could at best be called semi-deep-set. That speaks for a not too tall rig  -  moderation in all things...

    BTW, is there a (final) sailplan for her now?

    Cheers, and good luck!

    Arne

     

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