Tystie's new wing sail

  • 12 Jul 2014 17:28
    Reply # 3044236 on 3043957
    garth wilcox wrote:

    What a great job, nice shape and few wrinkles.  The higher aspect ratio looks very efficient.  Lighter stronger battens are the key to this working well, I'm dying to read the article.

    Thanks, Garth. Well, still some wrinkles. It may be that Mustang cloth is a little bit too stretchy for this rig, and regular sailcloth would be better if you want a rig to enter races organised by the Royal Xxxxx YC, but I'm still confident that it's the right cloth for ocean cruising and cruising to wild places.

    yes, I think that high AR, combined with the better helm balance that I now have, have gone a long way towards improving Tystie's windward performance, even before adding in the extra lift of the wing section. And high AR means shorter battens, which means lighter battens. I wonder what would happen if a cambered-panel JR rig were made to this planform? No reason why not.

  • 12 Jul 2014 17:16
    Reply # 3044235 on 3038372

    John,

    The main difficulty was to make joints that were strong enough and resistant to cyclical loadings. The bridge pieces behind the mast were rivetted on, and loosened. Welding would soften the alloy. If I made alloy noses again, I would try to bend them around in one piece, rather than rivetting on a plastic piece at the luff. This, I think would be hard to do, as the tube has to be over-bent and then allowed to spring back. It took me a while to develop a former shape just for the nose made from two pieces of tube. It would be as big a development job to develop a former shape for a one piece tubular alloy nose as for a CFRP moulding.

    Originally, I intended to go back to a ketch rig. This needed the mainsail to have as much balance area as possible, while the mizzen would have none at all. I got so exhausted making parts for the mainsail, that I couldn't face starting over and making parts for the mizzen, so I adapted my plan and made one single sail. This needed to be in the postion you see it, for helm balance, which has turned out to be very good, and better than the low AR fansail. It's undoubtedly easier to construct a nose with the mast positioned right at its forward end.

    I'm still experimenting with the bridge, or batten parrel, behind the mast. There must be something here, but I'm not yet sure what form it should take. At the moment, I favour a Dyneema cord with a nylon tube threaded on, but it could be that the upper battens, which are under compression, should have something more solid. It could also be that these upper battens should have a luff hauling parrel, but I need more sailing time to establish this.

  • 12 Jul 2014 16:05
    Reply # 3044211 on 3042521
    Deleted user
    David Tyler wrote:... though it will generally be made in carbon fibre rather than the aluminium tubular design that Sunbird used, and that I made and found to be wanting in my previous wing sails...
    David,

    What disadvantages did you find with your aluminum tube wishbone and battens? I could imagine that a DIY soft wingsail maker might find aluminum more tractable to work with than building a CF mold, etc., even though CF is undoubtedly lighter and stronger.

    The other interesting design aspect that I notice is that your new wing sail appears to have no balance to it (that is, the mast is right in the nose of the sail), while your older wingsail design had some. Even the initial designs of this sail, which you posted on BoatDesign.net, showed the mast to be well aft of the sail nose.

    The internal view of the sail you posted on BD.net shows struts between the wishbones and behind the mast, while I don't see those struts in the image you posted on JRA? Also, the struts in the BD.net photos appear to be different width at different batten locations. If you don't use struts or parrells, how do you locate the sail on the mast?


    Last modified: 12 Jul 2014 16:24 | Deleted user
  • 11 Jul 2014 23:33
    Reply # 3043957 on 3038372

    What a great job, nice shape and few wrinkles.  The higher aspect ratio looks very efficient.  Lighter stronger battens are the key to this working well, I'm dying to read the article.

  • 10 Jul 2014 10:43
    Reply # 3042697 on 3038372
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Good attitude, David!

    Now I looked up the prototype Beneteau wing sail. It looks more like the Gallant Rig, but with the hinge added to get proper camber. The Gallant rig had the un-hinged wishbones going  all the way from luff to leech. I also notice that Beneteau have gone for a rotating mast. Don't ask me why. There is a huge kicking strap to control the twist, so the sheet loads appears to be light. The lack of JR sheets must call for a number of reefing lines.

    In this perspective, I guess David’s challenge is to make a DIY-friendlier, JR-based version.

    Good luck  -  you appear to be pretty close now  -  just remember the final paper work!

    Cheers, Arne

     

    Ps at 12th July:
    As for rig of the future, instead of either or I prefer both and:  The choice of rig will depend a lot on the maker’s needs and capabilities, so there will be no hard answers...

    Last modified: 12 Jul 2014 11:00 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 10 Jul 2014 02:56
    Reply # 3042521 on 3038372

    Paul,

    Thanks for the kind words. But I must say that I have no sense of being in competition. I'd rather collaborate with others, to work together towards the rig of the future.

    I think we've come a long way since the Sunbird Swingwing. We've now got a much better foil section. The fact that Beneteau, with all its design and manufacturing muscle, is also going with a very similar foil section, encourages me to think that I'm heading the right way. The structure of a junk-based soft wing sail is unlikely to change hugely from the shaped nose/hinge/straight batten sort of format in the future,  though it will generally be made in carbon fibre rather than the aluminium tubular design that Sunbird used, and that I made and found to be wanting in my previous wing sails. You may be thinking that the hinges are metal because I painted everything grey, to keep the UV off in the tropics. They are in fact compression-moulded CFRP, and I'll get around to describing the way of making them as soon as I can.

    Last modified: 10 Jul 2014 02:59 | Anonymous member
  • 09 Jul 2014 22:00
    Reply # 3042104 on 3038372

    May I add my congratulations David. Getting any new sail built and working is a triumph. I was initially worried that we were both working on the same design and that you had got yours out before mine but now I have seen the photos I can relax. (I too am working on a new design for a wing-sail - a natural extension perhaps of the AeroJunk) I hope to have it built and proved by next spring.

    What surprised me about your sail is that it seems to be a 2014 version of Sunbird's Swing-Wing but with carbon-fibre battens. I thought you were a conservative when it came to mechanical devices on ocean voyages yet your sail seems to have metal hinges. I must assume you have confidence in the system.

    Happy sailing, Paul McKay



  • 08 Jul 2014 18:35
    Reply # 3040783 on 3040009
    Jerry Barth wrote:

    David,

       Is that an ALU light pole that you are using for the mast?  How tall is it?  The wingsail looks good, I'm surprised at how small the stack of wishbones is when it is down.

    Thanks,

    Jerry Barth

    This is a 222mm diameter spun-tapered aluminium alloy tube originally from Nedal in the Netherlands. It was 12m long, 10.5m LAP for my junk rigs, but for this sail, I needed to go for higher aspect ratio. I couldn't figure out a satisfactory way to lengthen it in one operation. I cut it near the top and inserted a length of yellow cedar, sheathed in carbon fibre, thus "hybridising" it. Then I set a 8ft x 10" diameter tube in the boat (with a plug 1m down from the top, craned the mast into it and filled the 1/2" gap with pourable polyurethane. This has turned out well, and the top of the 10" tube is at the foot of the sail. The LAP is now 13m. 
  • 07 Jul 2014 19:41
    Reply # 3040009 on 3038372

    David,

       Is that an ALU light pole that you are using for the mast?  How tall is it?  The wingsail looks good, I'm surprised at how small the stack of wishbones is when it is down.

    Thanks,

    Jerry Barth

  • 07 Jul 2014 08:25
    Reply # 3039060 on 3038372
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    I too, Darren! I surely don't want to discourage you from constructing a wing sail. I just don't think it will be everyone's sail, unless a boat manufacturer decides to produce it.

    Good luck!

    Arne 

    Last modified: 07 Jul 2014 08:27 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
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