Some sail modifications needed after 10,000 miles

  • 25 Oct 2013 16:28
    Reply # 1421181 on 1420975
    Paul Thompson wrote:David, if you use method "B" and PVC tube that is split as Slieve suggests and as I have done, it works perfectly. It's not method "B" that does not work, it's your implementation of it. Doubtless your method "D" will work better for how you are doing it but to me it seems an overly complicated way of doing things. Also if you sew the sail seam and sew the pocket on separately, you can replace the pocket without have to rip the sail seam.

    PS. I put my PVC over the pocket not inside as Slieve has done.

    OK, Paul, come back and tell me whether it's all still perfect after you've sailed 10,000 miles :-) That's what I'm reporting on. You don't know yet whether or not the edges of the PVC tube will chafe the pocket right next to the seam, which would be my guess in long term use.
    Last modified: 25 Oct 2013 16:32 | Anonymous member
  • 25 Oct 2013 09:36
    Reply # 1421027 on 1420975
    Anonymous member (Administrator)
    Paul Thompson wrote:

    ....

    ... Also if you sew the sail seam and sew the pocket on separately, you can replace the pocket without have to rip the sail seam.

    PS. I put my PVC over the pocket not inside as Slieve has done.


    Yes, Paul,

    I always assemble the batten panels and fit the batten pockets in two steps, as shown on these 4 photos, here (and step to NEXT x3). This both lets me replace a batten pocket, and, of course, also lets me fit batten pockets at the mast from  any strong material. Your use of an outside PVC tube sounds good.

    Arne

    Last modified: 25 Oct 2013 09:43 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 25 Oct 2013 04:59
    Reply # 1420975 on 1419789
    David, if you use method "B" and PVC tube that is split as Slieve suggests and as I have done, it works perfectly. It's not method "B" that does not work, it's your implementation of it. Doubtless your method "D" will work better for how you are doing it but to me it seems an overly complicated way of doing things. Also if you sew the sail seam and sew the pocket on separately, you can replace the pocket without have to rip the sail seam.

    PS. I put my PVC over the pocket not inside as Slieve has done.

    Last modified: 25 Oct 2013 08:59 | Anonymous member
  • 25 Oct 2013 01:55
    Reply # 1420900 on 1420798
    Arne Kverneland wrote:

    Stavanger, Thursday

    David,

    after a bit head-scratching, I now think I understand your Amateur Method D and it seems to be doable. I guess one would have to make a couple of test runs to get the right distance between the first two lines of stitches, to ensure the pocket works as you wish (.. that distance should be about the same as the batten’s diameter, right?).

    To play the devil’s advocate, I have two objections to version D:

    • 1.       The minor one is that it is fairly awkward to make, since the straight batten pocket cloth has to be forced into a quite sharp curve prior to the first seam. Also when preparing for the second seam, the pocket and upper panel will fight each other. This could lead to many wrinkles. I suggest using lots of staples!
    • 2.       My major objection is not so important for a fjord sailor like me, but for a long distance sailor, I would think it would be best if the batten pockets could be replaced or patched easily. I cannot see how that can be done with Method D, without picking the sail apart.

     

    However, my arguments could be an excuse for hiding my sloppy attitude (which resulted in Amateur Method A and B):

     

    Yes, I know that the sail looks less neat along the battens, when on the port tack (with a sail riding on the port side of the mast)  -  I showed how it looked in my latest write-up about my Frøken Sørensen.  Still, I leave it as it is since it doesn’t seem to do damage to the camber in the panel itself. The fact is that the boat sails OK, even on this “bad” tack.

    Cheap, available and good enough,

    that is my attitude…

    ( well, and maybe; performance goes before looks…).

    Cheers, Arne

    Arne, it's not at all difficult to work this way, and I speak from practical experience, having done so. We made Footprints' sail this way, except that the seam protruded on the batten side, not the reverse side, and there were no problems with the assembly. This may be because we used double sided tape to assemble the pieces, which is much better than using staples if you want to get your pieces well aligned. 

    My batten pockets are only a little bigger in circumference than the circumference of the batten - and this is much too tight. If I can remake my batten pockets with this method, they will be about 25% bigger in circumference, which I think will be about right. This will allow me to mould on a "bump" onto the battens, to provide a stop for the batten parrels, rather than having to screw on a stop after the battens have been inserted into the sail.

    Even using method 'B', the seam has to be ripped apart to put on a new pocket. Since I want to adjust the camber, taking out some cloth, this will be no disadvantage. 

     My main point is that if my batten pockets had been made to method 'D' in the first place, I would have no need to repair them now, after 10,000 miles. My considered opinion is that method 'B' is not quite "Good Enough", for long distance sailing. Method 'C' is better, and method 'D' is better still. Method 'D' gives as good a result as the sailmaker's method of sewing the panels together and then stitching on the pockets, but without having to pass a roll of cloth under the machine, and so that is what I will use, if I can find a suitable room to re-work my sail when I reach my winter quarters.

    Performance, and Longevity, ahead of Looks. Method 'B' may have performance, but it has neither longevity or looks to commend it. It works as the "quick and dirty" way to make a sail, as you found at first, but it's time now to move on to better ways of working.
  • 25 Oct 2013 00:02
    Reply # 1420844 on 1419789
    If you're in the drawing mood, Arne, it might be worth illustrating Roger Taylor's new batten pocket/camber Triple H "Horizontal Hinge Hybrid" method. It looks very interesting, he shows it off in a youtube video and seems to be happy with it on a subsequent test sail.

    Last modified: 25 Oct 2013 00:03 | Anonymous member
  • 24 Oct 2013 22:56
    Reply # 1420798 on 1419789
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Stavanger, Thursday

    David,

    after a bit head-scratching, I now think I understand your Amateur Method D and it seems to be doable. I guess one would have to make a couple of test runs to get the right distance between the first two lines of stitches, to ensure the pocket works as you wish (.. that distance should be about the same as the batten’s diameter, right?).

    To play the devil’s advocate, I have two objections to version D:

    • 1.       The minor one is that it is fairly awkward to make, since the straight batten pocket cloth has to be forced into a quite sharp curve prior to the first seam. Also when preparing for the second seam, the pocket and upper panel will fight each other. This could lead to many wrinkles. I suggest using lots of staples!
    • 2.       My major objection is not so important for a fjord sailor like me, but for a long distance sailor, I would think it would be best if the batten pockets could be replaced or patched easily. I cannot see how that can be done with Method D, without picking the sail apart.

     

    However, my arguments could be an excuse for hiding my sloppy attitude (which resulted in Amateur Method A and B):

     

    Yes, I know that the sail looks less neat along the battens, when on the port tack (with a sail riding on the port side of the mast)  -  I showed how it looked in my latest write-up about my Frøken Sørensen.  Still, I leave it as it is since it doesn’t seem to do damage to the camber in the panel itself. The fact is that the boat sails OK, even on this “bad” tack.

    Cheap, available and good enough,

    that is my attitude…

    ( well, and maybe; performance goes before looks…).

    Cheers, Arne

    Last modified: 24 Oct 2013 22:58 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 24 Oct 2013 18:46
    Reply # 1420631 on 1419789
    I've drawn an illustration of what I think would be the easiest, longest-lasting way of doing a panel seam and batten pocket, and named it Amateur method 'D' 

    As you will see, Arne, there is no need to pass a roll under the machine, the batten pocket is attached at two points and is more stable, and I would expect the panels to set with a better appearance than they do with Amateur method 'B'.

    Slieve, my wingsails had doublers that were in line with the leech and threadline, and gave no problems, but that was working with new cloth. The best shape of patch to cover the damaged cloth would be a semicircle or a triangle, and that would naturally put the stitching off the threadline of the cloth.
  • 24 Oct 2013 11:00
    Reply # 1420288 on 1419789

    My batten pockets were made by an extremely clever method that is so impractical in practice that I will not give details in case someone tries to waste time and effort in copying it. The net result is that they are similar to Arne’s method B, which I would have used if they had been published when I made my sail. I made the pockets of sail material and as the battens don’t move back and forward I simply clip short lengths of split PVC waste pipe over batten and pocket in line with the mast. I put the pipe inside the pocket but there is little reason why it could not be over the pocket. 50mm waste pipe with a knife cut along the axis clips nicely onto a 50mm batten. It seems to work and is so easy that I think it must be wrong.

    By the way David, if you are putting reinforcing patches along the leech of the sail I suggest that you arrange them so that the edge of the patch does not line up with the thread line of the material. By putting the edge of the patch at an angle to the threadline you do not get a stress line along a natural tear line.

    Cheers, Slieve.

  • 24 Oct 2013 08:56
    Reply # 1420233 on 1420066
    Anonymous member (Administrator)
    David Tyler wrote:

    The "Footprint method" will of course work as well, but is a lot more difficult to make.

    Cheers, Arne

    It's actually no more difficult to make, but does mean another line of sewing. That's all.


    OK, you may be right. My reason for saying that Amateur Method B is simpler, is that I don't have to pass a roll of sailcloth under the sewing machine's arm. I may have exaggerated the difficulty to do so. However, by avoiding this rolling up, I save a lot of table- or floor space since I don't need space to line up  the roll in front of and behind the the machine. This lets me assemble quite big sails in an ordinary, and rather crowded living room. That is half my reason for using the method. The other half is that  it is so easy to join two batten panels with convex curves along the battens.

    PS: I see now that your way of fitting b. pockets to Footprints' sail is also quite easy. However, if you have to replace a b. pocket on a finished sail, the only way to avoid passing a lot of sail under the sewing machine's arm is to use the Amateur method B. With that method I think it should be possible to patch the batten pockets with the sail still rigged.

    Arne

    Last modified: 04 Apr 2018 16:45 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 24 Oct 2013 00:54
    Reply # 1420066 on 1420039

    The "Footprint method" will of course work as well, but is a lot more difficult to make.

    Cheers, Arne

    It's actually no more difficult to make, but does mean another line of sewing. That's all.
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