Forgot password

How does one sail a schooner to windward? (Touches on motor-sailing too.)

  • 26 Oct 2013 14:13
    Quote
    Reply # 1421751 on 1417956
    Deleted user
    Thanks Graham. I'll report back after the next sail - with OB raised. It is an X-long leg (25"), and pokes a long way out of the hull.
    With our previous boat (a 24'er) we'd battle all day to windward at 3 knots, towing a dinghy..  But I think this OB is worse.
    Last modified: 26 Oct 2013 16:10 | Deleted user
  • 26 Oct 2013 08:23
    Quote
    Reply # 1421670 on 1417956
    Anonymous member
    Well done Gary on getting sailing at last.  Looks good to me, but then I am not a fussy sailor.  Why go fast when you can go slow?  If you go too fast you'll spill your drinks!  And having spent all that time building a boat to get out there there's no need to rush back.  I am being somewhat tongue in cheek of course, knowing only too well that when coastal sailing time can become something of a tyrant.  Once you go offshore it won't matter and you won't want to cram the dear boat up to windward anyway.  Arion is really slow when hard on the wind in a seaway, doing 3 knots if I am lucky, but if I crack off to 45 degrees to the apparent wind (winds 12 knots +), which means I am making good 55 - 60 degrees, the boat powers up nicely.  I always ease the sail out until the top panels start to shiver then take up a few inches of sheet.  I don't know anything about schooners but would do the same with each sail if I had one.  Over-sheeting seems to be the biggest problem with this rig and the cambered sails are brilliant because the panels will lift a bit when you ease them too far.  They "talk" to you.
  • 24 Oct 2013 16:19
    Quote
    Reply # 1420477 on 1417956
    Deleted user
    So to tackle the drag on the hull issue. I'm busy constructing a little below decks block tackle and slide mechanism for the outboard.

    ATM the only way to get the prop out from dragging on the hull is to lift the whole motor out with a block & tackle attached to the boom crutch, which is less than ideal in a rolling seaway.
  • 24 Oct 2013 00:53
    Quote
    Reply # 1420065 on 1419477
    Anonymous member
    Paul Thompson wrote: One thing begs a question. If going from the cockpit to the mast makes it possible to haul your sail up without a winch, it would suggest that that last block and any other blocks/deck organisers are adding quite a bit of friction. Now I do know that at the mast you can add your weight to the equation, but still...
    No, I can stand by the mast and pull the sail by hauling the halliard up from the deck block, although obviously, it's easier to pull down from the masthead.  In my case it is simply a case that pulling vertically at the mast is a lot more efficient than pulling horizontally from the cockpit.  There is nothing else causing friction.  As long as the sheet is well overhauled.
  • 23 Oct 2013 19:32
    Quote
    Reply # 1419855 on 1417956
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

                                                                  Stavanger, Wednesday

    When I first hoisted the JR sail on Johanna, in 2002, I found that the rig  (40 - 50kg) was a  number too big for me and unless I did something, I would have problems with single-handing her. I solved the problem in steps:

    1. The original yard was of wood, designed right from PJR, just as on Malena. However, when growing from 4,7 to 6 m the weight became intolerable, probably over 20kg. I replaced it by an aluminium  yard, designed with a main tube and a thinner bracing tube, much lighter, probably less than 10kg.
    2. Next step was to replace the 5-part sheet with a 3-part one. That helped as much as replacing the yard. However, this made sheeting harder, so in 2004 I fitted a snubber winch for the sheet (old genoa winch from Malena). These two steps made hoisting the sail possible for me, but it was still hard.
    3. Soon after my first sails, in 2003, Svein Magnus Ueland in Samson came over and gave me a brand new Andersen 12, self-tailing winch. With this in place, I always hoist the last two panels with the winch, when alone. From now on I felt that I had full control.
    4. A few years later, I replaced the worn halyard and the new one had less friction in it, making the sail go both up and come down more easily.
    5. In 2011 I got my hands on an electric winch handle which fits with the halyard winch. Now I can literally hoist the sail with one hand on my back  -  it feels a bit like cheating...

    So what more could be done? I guess the halyard blocks could be better. I remember on a rally in Stavanger that Robin Blain commented on my rather small blocks. I guess he was right and that I should look around for some that are bigger and better. My hunch is that a large diameter of the block is just as important as using low-friction bearings.

    Arne

    Last modified: 27 Jan 2018 10:28 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 23 Oct 2013 12:46
    Quote
    Reply # 1419547 on 1419477
    Deleted user
    Paul Thompson wrote:
    Gary, I'd definitely get rid of that deck organiser if it's possible. Just do an experiment and try hoisting the sail from the cockpit but without the line going through the deck organiser. I think you'd be surprised.
    That would be a worthwhile thing to do, would have to lead the halyard to deck starboard of the companionway hatch to do it. 

    Looks like the marina's "Milo Minderbinder" has sourced a pair of used 2 speed winches for $200 ea., I hope they're not hot (He's a Kiwi, so at least scamming a finders fee...)
  • 23 Oct 2013 06:34
    Quote
    Reply # 1419477 on 1419443
    Anonymous member
    Annie Hill wrote:While the Oracle is correct that good quality blocks are important in the halliard, from my experience the overwhelming bulk of the friction comes from the sheet.  My budget doesn't run to quality sheet blocks and the more sail I hoist, the more they make it difficult.  If I overhaul the blocks, I can haul just about the whole sail from the cockpit.  (Normally I only raise 3 or 4 panels, because I'm sailing the anchor out and things happen too quickly with full sail.  Once I get going, I crank up the rest of the sail with a winch.  It still appreciates me overhauling the sheet, however.)
    Grasshopper, while I most certainly would not disagree with you that a lot if not most of the friction comes from the sheet, cause there are a lot of blocks there. One thing begs a question. If going from the cockpit to the mast makes it possible to haul your sail up without a winch, it would suggest that that last block and any other blocks/deck organisers are adding quite a bit of friction. Now I do know that at the mast you can add your weight to the equation, but still...

    Gary, I'd definitely get rid of that deck organiser if it's possible. Just do an experiment and try hoisting the sail from the cockpit but without the line going through the deck organiser. I think you'd be surprised.
  • 23 Oct 2013 05:04
    Quote
    Reply # 1419443 on 1417956
    Anonymous member
    Gary, your mainsail is the size of my sail and I - all 1.55 m and 55 kg of me - can pull it up easily from the mast.  I need the winch in the cockpit. 

    While the Oracle is correct that good quality blocks are important in the halliard, from my experience the overwhelming bulk of the friction comes from the sheet.  My budget doesn't run to quality sheet blocks and the more sail I hoist, the more they make it difficult.  If I overhaul the blocks, I can haul just about the whole sail from the cockpit.  (Normally I only raise 3 or 4 panels, because I'm sailing the anchor out and things happen too quickly with full sail.  Once I get going, I crank up the rest of the sail with a winch.  It still appreciates me overhauling the sheet, however.) 

    If someone would like to throw some fancy blocks my way, I'll snatch their hand off - but they'll go on the sheet long before I bother with the halliard!!
  • 23 Oct 2013 00:58
    Quote
    Reply # 1419339 on 1417956
    Deleted user
    woah, just updated the rig info.

    Main yard 3.85m x 100m x 3mm
    Main battens 4.4m x 40mm x 3mm
    - except batten no.1 is 50mm x 3m

    All that weights 34kg
    Sail cloths feels about 10kg - total 44kg then there's the heavy double braid parrels all over it.

    Halyard 3:1
    Comes back to a block on deck, then an organiser , finishing at a rope clutch.
    The fixed luff parrels undoubtedly add friction.

    Just average strength here (office worker too). Could haul it up if I blew a gasket, but off the coast with the boat heeling & tossing I dont have the energy.
    But I dont mind it since installing a winch makes it a non issue.

    Also, I dont know what batten stagger issues are. The sails go up and down (they've raised at dock often enough too) without sheets getting caught. Must be that the fixed luff parrels are doing their job.

    The blocks are plain Ronstans, and at this stage we are more interested in just getting out there, and if its not broke we're concentrating on other things (like losing the sea anchor and moving aboard). Refinements can happen some other time.
    Last modified: 23 Oct 2013 01:28 | Deleted user
  • 22 Oct 2013 21:26
    Quote
    Reply # 1419250 on 1417956
    Anonymous member
    Gary,

    I've had a good look at your sail plan in view of Ashiki's hard to hoist main and LC's relatively easy to hoist main. First let me describe LC's setup and then what I know of Ashiki's.

    LC main sail details:

    Area: 38.2Sq.M
    No. of Panels: 8
    Yard: Fabricated from 4mm aluminum plate
    Top 3 battens: 50mmx2.2mm tube
    Lower 4 battens: 50mmx1.6mm tube
    Boom batten: 50x50x3 square tube
    Sail cloth: Marchem Mustang approx 8oz cloth weight
    Weight of the above: Not sure but it's in the ballpark of 50kg
    Halyard: 10mm line on 3 to 1 purchase. Two singles (P&S) at masthead, one single with becket at yard, one single at foot of mast. Leads straight to rope clutch.
    Sheet: Three part sheet connected to 2 three panel spans (PJR fig4.28) then leads to a block at the end of the boom (batten) and from there under the boom (batten) to a block on the boom (batten) just before the mast, then on to a block on the coachroof and to a rope clutch.
    Standing batten parrels: All battens, yard and boom batten have long standing batten parrels.
    Running parrels: Standard yard hauling parrel, Throat hauling parrel (rigged from end of yard, around mast and to block on end of second batten. Two running luff parrels from batten 3&4 and 5&6 respectively. No hongkong parrels.

    Ashiki main sail details (gleaned from photo & published sail plan and postings):

    Area: 30.Sq.M
    No. of Panels: 7
    Yard: 80mmx2mm tube
    Batten no.1: 40mmx3mm tube
    Lower 5 battens: 40mmx1.6mm tube
    Boom batten: 40x1.6mm tube
    Sail cloth: Marchem Odyssey approx 6oz cloth weight
    Weight of the above: Not sure but I'd guess in the ballpark of 30kg?
    Halyard: 5 to 1 purchase.
    Sheet: 5 to 1. Sheetlet arrangement - not known
    Standing batten parrels: All battens have long standing batten parrels & Fay parrels.
    Running parrels: Yard hauling parrel leads to end of yard as per Paul Fay, Standing Throat parrel (rigged from end of yard).

    Based on weight alone, you should easily be able to haul your sail up without the aid of a winch. I don't know but you are most likely bigger than me (I'm 5'8 and 68kg and not particularly strong), most guy's are :-) so that should be another plus for you. I don't know for sure about the Fay parreles (friction) but I'm suspicious. Have you ever hoisted the sail without them? They are however interesting and I'm going to try them sometime this summer.

    The other outstanding differences are your purchases on the sheet and on the halyard. Both are five part, which I do not believe you really need. Any purchase gains you are getting seems to be removed by friction and I'd highly recommend that you take a look at that aspect. Also what sort of quality are your blocks? They look like plain bearing Ronstan, good blocks but not very free running. Look at Rutgerson & Seldon for really free running plan bearing blocks and to Gerhauer for good ball bearing blocks. LC has Seldon & Rutgerson blocks and I'm very satisfied.

    You still want winches of cause, because when the sail is full of wind even on LC I need a winch. Also your partner most likely would need a winch, unless you like being called to hoist the sail on your off watch :-)

    I did the above, not to criticize but to try and get a handle on why on LC with much heavier gear and a larger sail, I can haul the sail (luffing, not full of wind) up by hand and you cannot do the same with a smaller lighter sail. To sum up, I think you need to look at the sheet and halyard arrangements, block quality and possibly the Fay parrels. Hope this posting helps you.

    PS. I'm in the process of changing my halyard blocks over to the Gerhauer ball bearing blocks as I'm trying to get the sail hoistable from my pramhood hatch by hand. It will of cause make it even easier to hoist from the cockpit but that will be a bonus. Also note that while I can hoist the sail all the way with the plan bearing blocks, the last two panels are only just doable for me.

    Last modified: 22 Oct 2013 21:31 | Anonymous member
       " ...there is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing as simply messing about in junk-rigged boats" 
                                                               - the Chinese Water Rat

                                                              Site contents © the Junk Rig Association and/or individual authors

Powered by Wild Apricot Membership Software