Draft in the Junk Sail

  • 01 Mar 2024 06:45
    Reply # 13322983 on 13317633

    I have a cambered junkrig sail on my boat. My expectation was that the sail should sail better with wind from the mast side, i.e. with the sail in good foil shape instead of pressing against the mast. In actual performance, I was suprised to find the reverse result. The boat sail better with the sail pressing against the mast! I played with simulation software trying to find out the effect of the distorted sail when pressed against the mast. It showed that there isn't much damage on the laminate flow. (see image). My guess was that the transmission of propulsion force is more "solid" with the battens pressing against the mast, instead of transmission through the parrels on the reverse side.

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  • 24 Feb 2024 17:56
    Reply # 13320338 on 13317633

    I also don't think these are vortices on the leading edge (by the way, an interesting phenomenon, am not an expert in this field, this is the first time I've heard about it).

    We might rather consider von Karman vortex shedding when sailing downwind. Even when sitting in an armchair I can feel the swing that occurs with completely relaxed (laid-back?) sheets on a downwind course. Ahoy !

    Isn't it vortex shedding ? With a big wave and a junk without ballast, maybe this was a problem?

    But of course this is just armchair thinking while drinking beer....

    I'm no expert in this field, so of course I may be wrong :)

    Last modified: 25 Feb 2024 17:49 | Anonymous member
  • 24 Feb 2024 11:21
    Reply # 13320257 on 13317633
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Some Big Paradoxes..

    ...about aeroplane wings and sailing rigs...

    ..and about sails with different foil sections.

    From time to time aeroplane aerodynamics is brought into the discussion about sailing rigs.
    Aeroplane wings and sails work in the same way, kind of, but since their parameters sit in the opposite end of most scales, they are more dissimilar than similar.

    Common basic rules.
    Most wings and (close-hauled) sails make use of attached airflow at the upper (or lee) side of them to make them efficient. With that airflow attached to the sail, the wind on both sides will leave that sail parallel with its trailing edge. If the angle of attack is increased too much, the airflow on the leeside of the sail will separate itself from it (indicated by the collapsed telltales). On an aeroplane, that means that the wing will no longer be able to carry the aeroplane. In a sailboat’s sail, it only means that the boat will slow down a good deal.

    Performance-wise the biggest difference between wings and sails sits in the lift/drag ratio (L/D). The L/D of and aeroplane’s wing can be 10, 20, 30, and up to 60:1 on the hottest sailplanes.

    For most single-ply sails, the L/D will rarely exceed 4:1.
    For this reason, it makes little sense to fret too much about niceties like leading edge shape and vortex at the tip of the sail. In particular, armchair discussions not backed with practical observation on board, have limited value except in producing interesting ideas that can inspire to practical testing.
    Have a look at the diagram showing three (or 3½) airfoils on junkrigs.

    Case 2 shows the two very different foil shapes in a cambered panel sail in the lower section of a Johanna style sail. On one tack, the curve is nice and even. On the other tack, with the mast on the leeside, the sail foil is badly distorted by that mast (plus a bit by the Hong Kong parrels). Even so, the sail performs well on both tacks, and it is easy to make the telltales at the leech fly. To me the use of telltales at the leech is essential to show if the airflow at the leeside of the sail is attached or not. If I over-sheet the sail, those telltales collapse behind the sail.

    Without this practical experience, I would have been prone to saying that the sail could not work properly on port tack, but it does (..remember, with the L/D in the 3.5-4:1 area...). Test-sailing the first cambered panel sail in 1994 gave a happy surprise there.

    Case 1. The flat sail.
    This was how the first sail for Malena looked like (1990). Although it worked well enough downwind, it turned my Malena into a lame duck when close-hauled  -  and this despite her 32sqm sail which gave her a SA/disp. of over 25.

    I have drawn in a collapsed telltale indicating a stall. Actually, I didn’t fly telltales on that sail, so I only guess here, based on the over-sheeted cambered panel sail.

    The Case 3 sail has ‘air pockets’, as found on some Chinese vessels.
    I have no experience with this, so can only speculate. It will be up to the observers and users of that traditional Chinese sail to tell how it works. Again, I wish they put telltales at the leech to let them see how the airstream leaves the sail there. If it proves to produce an attached airflow on the sail’s leeside, this could be an interesting way of making big junk-sails.

    Camber induced by twist.
    I haven’t tried this, but it surely is an interesting subject.

    Arne

    (Full size diagram in Arne's sketches, section 7-40)

    Last modified: 24 Feb 2024 16:21 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 22 Feb 2024 17:04
    Reply # 13319370 on 13317633

    Yes, a never ending list of experiments. I unfortunately don't have the time or money that I thought I had a few years ago to throw at researching this. A couple of points though; I think the Reddish sail-plan has too long a luff, the closer the forward ends of the battens are to each other the greater the fanning effect, I think. And yes, Vincent Reddish had fanned battens, slightly flexed battens and some sag in the sail. I think if we could invent a batten that takes  the perfect form and is unbreakable and had a synthetic fabric that was engineered with just the right stretch like old natural fabrics then we could have a very low drag, lift inducing sail. I just instinctively feel that a lot of junk sails are very high drag and that cannot be good for upwind work. (I also believe that sails are not wings and we shouldn't get too absorbed in aircraft aerodynamics).

    In answer to Graeme, writing up something about the Halibut sail is on the to-do list, I'm afraid it is slipping down that list though. I might make a quick video in the summer. 

    And thanks to John for doing the 3-D drawings. I had thought of this as a great way of exploring the shapes but again, it's on the to-do list. Is there a free 3D software that is easy to learn for this kind of thing or do you need an engineering degree?

    Last modified: 22 Feb 2024 17:07 | Anonymous member
  • 21 Feb 2024 10:34
    Reply # 13318540 on 13318538
    Anonymous wrote:

    The shape of the pocket in photo no. 2 (Bohai sail) is, in my opinion, acceptable as it does not disturb the air flow too much. However, I am intrigued by the pockets on the sail in photo no. 1 (Fujian style sail), because this is not the first photo in which I see pockets in a junk sail formed seemingly against the laws of aerodynamics (in my opinion - they disrupt the flow of the air stream). But after all, similar pockets are used in parachuting, so maybe it has a deeper purpose?


    The mystery deepens - we clearly have a lot to learn.
  • 21 Feb 2024 10:31
    Reply # 13318538 on 13317633

    The shape of the pocket in photo no. 2 (Bohai sail) is, in my opinion, acceptable as it does not disturb the air flow too much. However, I am intrigued by the pockets on the sail in photo no. 1 (Fujian style sail), because this is not the first photo in which I see pockets in a junk sail formed seemingly against the laws of aerodynamics (in my opinion - they disrupt the flow of the air stream). But after all, similar pockets are used in parachuting, so maybe it has a deeper purpose?


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    Last modified: 21 Feb 2024 10:38 | Anonymous member
  • 21 Feb 2024 09:21
    Reply # 13318526 on 13318012
    Anonymous wrote:
    Anonymous wrote:

    I was shocked by photo 6! But... if these ropes across the panels were adjustable, maybe sailing downwind would be easier? E.g. Karman vortex reduction? As mysterious as the rhomboid holes in the rudders...

    I suspect those diagonal lines are there solely to provide structural reinforcement, countering the downward pull of the sheet. Their effect is to flatten the overall shape of the sail and I think it's unlikely that it intentionally serves any mysterious aerodynamic purpose. 

    I wonder if cambered panels or "wind pockets" in Chinese sails simply occurred accidentally because of stretch in the sailcloth. That certainly looks likely in the 3 masted junk shown by Arne.

    The diagonal lines both act as reinforcement of the fabric and intentional creation of air pockets. I saw them put in fishing lines inside the reinforcement ropes before sewing onto the fabric. When they sew the rope to the fabric they intentionally create small crease with the needle so that the fabric was squeezed along the length of the rope to create pockets.(see pic)

    From the detail (see pic) they hung the sailcloth to the batten on the Bohai junk. I am sure that the pocket is intentional.

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    Last modified: 21 Feb 2024 09:38 | Anonymous member
  • 20 Feb 2024 12:47
    Reply # 13318012 on 13317991
    Anonymous wrote:

    I was shocked by photo 6! But... if these ropes across the panels were adjustable, maybe sailing downwind would be easier? E.g. Karman vortex reduction? As mysterious as the rhomboid holes in the rudders...

    I suspect those diagonal lines are there solely to provide structural reinforcement, countering the downward pull of the sheet. Their effect is to flatten the overall shape of the sail and I think it's unlikely that it intentionally serves any mysterious aerodynamic purpose. 

    I wonder if cambered panels or "wind pockets" in Chinese sails simply occurred accidentally because of stretch in the sailcloth. That certainly looks likely in the 3 masted junk shown by Arne.

  • 20 Feb 2024 11:02
    Reply # 13317991 on 13317633

    I was shocked by photo 6! But... if these ropes across the panels were adjustable, maybe sailing downwind would be easier? E.g. Karman vortex reduction? As mysterious as the rhomboid holes in the rudders...

    Last modified: 20 Feb 2024 11:08 | Anonymous member
  • 19 Feb 2024 20:54
    Reply # 13317823 on 13317633
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Thanks, John, very interesting. The more I look on the Asian originals, the more I believe that my baggy panel sails are no radical departure from their rigs. Another example is the Lorcas  on the cover of JRA NL 23 (photo from 1932). I struggle with understanding why the junk sails with fullness were not introduced all over Britain, with so good photo material available.

    However, back to the matter of adding camber by introducing twist, as Vincent Reddish wrote about in NL 22.
    Now I imported his sailplan into my QCAD program, scaled it to B=5.00m and evened out lengths a tiny bit (hardly visible). I also added diagonals to let one loft the sail, or a scale model of it. If you look carefully, you will also note a number of horizontal dotted lines. The idea is to draw these lines onto the sail model before adding the battens. Then, when hung up and with twist introduced, one can easily spot any camber.

    Good luck!
    Arne

    PS: The original Reddish sail for his Vertue had B=5.20m, so his sail area should be around 29.3sqm.


    (Full size drawing in my album, Arne's sketches, section 7-38)

    Last modified: 20 Feb 2024 10:03 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
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