FanShi gets a new sail

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  • 10 May 2024 00:58
    Reply # 13354775 on 13354606
    Scott wrote

    I really should have bought a seam ripper before making my sail. Somehow I convinced myself that it was an unnecessary expense. The pointed scissors I have worked, but now that I have a seam ripper (yes, I spent a whole $3.00 to get one recently), removing zig zag stitches is very easy.

    Scott, a high quality seam ripper is an essential tool in any sail makers sewing box.
  • 09 May 2024 19:48
    Reply # 13354606 on 13354102
    Arne wrote:

    David.[...]

    Yes, I may have said that Method B allows for easy removal and replacement of a pocket. You are right, of course  -  I have never needed to do that in real life. In theory, the forward pocket may get worn against the mast, but since I use heavy pvc-fabric there, this appears to be a not-problem.

    Cheers,
    Arne


    I have been hesitating to chime in here, mostly from embarrassment, but I found the batten pockets attached this way were relatively easy to remove.

    This is embarrassing because I managed to sew on a complete set of pockets before I realized they were too small. This was not the fault of Arne's instructions or any good reason. I just cut them the wrong size and sewed them on.

    With a zig-zag stitch and this method of assembly it was frustrating to un-do my work, but it was not all that difficult.

    I really should have bought a seam ripper before making my sail. Somehow I convinced myself that it was an unnecessary expense. The pointed scissors I have worked, but now that I have a seam ripper (yes, I spent a whole $3.00 to get one recently), removing zig zag stitches is very easy.

    I have made one and only one sail. I cannot add anything about which method may be better in specific circumstances.

    Last modified: 10 May 2024 14:09 | Anonymous member
  • 09 May 2024 10:32
    Reply # 13354290 on 13289228
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Thank you for your more detailed reply David, appreciated, and I see what you are getting at now. I also notice you have shifted the emphasis to large scale sewing projects. 

    I have only made relatively small sails (shelf foot camber, round only camber, method B panel joining/batten pocket, lap join seaming with no batten pocket) - the largest being only about 16 sq m.

    To be honest, I am still not convinced. 

    However, until I have made a "large scale" sail (say, comparable with some of the bigger ones you have made), I am obviously not qualified to hold too strong a counter opinion. 

    (I continue to enjoy your occasional, occasionally provocative, but always informative posts).

    Thank you.

    Last modified: 09 May 2024 10:57 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 08 May 2024 21:59
    Reply # 13354102 on 13289228
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    David.
    Let’s start with what we fully agree about. Paul T has made a mighty fine and very good sail for Annie’s FanShi. Congratulations to both Paul and Annie!

    Back to the finer details about Amateur Method this or that.

    • ·         You express concerns about stitching on the batten pockets on the curved joints because of the barrel cut method. I can’t help feeling that you make this problem bigger than it is. I have made a few sails this way, and stitched on dozens of batten pocket, and honestly, this has never been a problem to me. Look up Chapter 5, page 16 of TCPJR. Here a batten pocket simply is stapled in place prior to dragging it to the sewing machine. My only worry is the possibility of making a tight (narrow?) spot, so I always run a test (stub) batten through the pocket afterwards. In theory, this should result in lots of wrinkles on the batten pockets. However, unless one has tied the sail on with too much slack along the battens, these wrinkles will hardly show.
    • ·         I generally end the batten pockets 150-200mm from luff and leech, so there is plenty of room for felling that seam (downwards)  -  after having added the pocket gap cover strips. This part is anyway hidden behind the batten.
    • ·         Photos on page 18 and 19 show how I align the big webbing loops at luff and leech. By again using that stub batten, it is easy to get the position right. That way I avoid that the batten pocket sag or droop.

    Yes, I may have said that Method B allows for easy removal and replacement of a pocket. You are right, of course  -  I have never needed to do that in real life. In theory, the forward pocket may get worn against the mast, but since I use heavy pvc-fabric there, this appears to be a not-problem.

    Cheers,
    Arne


    Last modified: 09 May 2024 14:20 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 08 May 2024 20:25
    Reply # 13354032 on 13289228

    Sorry, Graeme, I'm finding it more and more difficult to write clearly and at length. It's no surprise to me that you missed the point.

    When joining two panels, laying them back-to-back or face-to-face, and stitching along the edge, is a no brainer.  Whether the sail is small and light, or large and heavy, this has got to be the easy way, and though it's not standard sailmaking practice, its longevity is well proven. It's much easier than a lapped joint, which is not too bad if the edges are straight and the panels are flat, but gets difficult if the panel edges are curved or if there is 3D shape sewn into the panels (by any method).

    But having done that, the difficulties with method B start (for anyone not used to large scale sewing projects, but not necessarily for a skilled sailmaker):

    • Sewing straight batten pockets onto the curved edge of a barrel-cut flat panel. Of course, that problem goes away if both edges are straight, as is the case for a shelf foot or a panel that has a faceted edge with tucks sewn in so that the edge becomes straight. But sewing the lapped joint between a straight-edged panel and a curved-edge lens introduces another difficulty. So I would always recommend a tucked edge for ease of sewing method B (and C and D), and for the best appearance of the complete sail - for an unskilled sailmaker trying to sew a large, heavy sail.  
    • Deciding what to do at luff and leech where there are no pockets - the seam needs to be felled, which can look untidy, and can result in so many layers that the machine may not cope - again, on a large, heavy sail. These issues are trivial in a small sail of thin light cloth.
    And so I've proposed methods C and D, which start in the same way as method B, with one panel on top of another, and with the same ease of sewing those panels together, but with different methods of adding the batten pocket that are easier and better than method B.
    • The batten lies closer to the sail, which results in a better appearance.
    • The seam is not felled, but protrudes on the opposite side to the batten, where it does not result in having to sew through too many layers.

    I know that Arne has said that method B allows for the removal and replacement of a pocket, but I don't buy this. I can't remember ever having done so. Make a good sail, with good materials and methods, and it won't be necessary. 

    Anyway, whatever methods Paul has used, this is a mighty fine sail, well built and good looking, and I'd be proud to own it and happy to sail it anywhere in the world (if I were a decade or two younger).   

    I hope that's a bit more understandable.

  • 08 May 2024 12:14
    Reply # 13353786 on 13289228
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    David wrote: "...in the hands of a skilled sailmaker who is prepared to put in the extra effort and make a shelf foot, method B will indeed produce a good result. In the hands of an unskilled/first time sailmaker, I'm still unsure that it's the best panel joining method to recommend..."

    I don't understand that statement. Perhaps I have missed David's point entirely.

    My understanding of "method B" is that it involves assembling panels back-to-back in order to make the join, rather than lapping, and for the join to be covered by a very simple batten pocket detail which covers the joining seam and adds to the structure. 

    When it comes to joining the cambered panels together, what difference does it make whether they are shelf foot panels or some other method?

    Also, what is there about "Method B" which makes it not to be recommended "in the hands of an unskilled/first time sailmaker"?

    Having tried it both ways, and being in the unskilled category myself, I would have thought the opposite.


    Last modified: 08 May 2024 20:09 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 08 May 2024 07:59
    Reply # 13353757 on 13353745
    Annie wrote:

    Is this what you want, David?  (For some reason, I can't embed the photo in my post!)

    Thanks, Annie. Yes, this shows that in the hands of a skilled sailmaker who is prepared to put in the extra effort and make a shelf foot, method B will indeed produce a good result. In the hands of an unskilled/first time sailmaker, I'm still unsure that it's the best panel joining method to recommend.
    Last modified: 08 May 2024 07:59 | Anonymous member
  • 08 May 2024 05:52
    Reply # 13353745 on 13289228

    Is this what you want, David?  (For some reason, I can't embed the photo in my post!)



    1 file
    Last modified: 08 May 2024 05:54 | Anonymous member
  • 08 May 2024 00:25
    Reply # 13353679 on 13353295
    Anonymous wrote:
    Paul wrote:
    Annie wrote:

    Alan took a great photo of FanShi yesterday when I was sailing alongside La Chica.  I thought some members might like another look at my beautiful new sail!

    Hi David, Finally the longed for port side view of the sail!
    Nope, sorry Paul - this photo is not the one I'd like to see; it's certainly a port side view  of a beautiful sail, but FanShi is on starboard tack. 

    What I'm interested in is to see the sail blowing against the battens, so as to demonstrate the one shortcoming with 'method B'. So ... a good photo of FanShi on port tack, taken from the port side, has yet to be taken, it seems.

    Ah, you might have to wait until I get Zebedee sailing.... Might be a few months yet as I've three, possibly four sail orders to complete before my time is fully my own again.

    Currently spending a month making Zebedee's sails. Foresail is done, busy with the main.

    Last modified: 08 May 2024 00:28 | Anonymous member
  • 07 May 2024 10:49
    Reply # 13353305 on 13353295
    Anonymous member (Administrator)
    David Tyler wrote:Nope, sorry Paul - this photo is not the one I'd like to see; it's certainly a port side view  of a beautiful sail, but FanShi is on starboard tack. 

    What I'm interested in is to see the sail blowing against the battens, so as to demonstrate the one shortcoming with 'method B'. So ... a good photo of FanShi on port tack, taken from the port side, has yet to be taken, it seems.


    David,

    since you want a clearer view of a sail with the panels joined with Amateur Method B, on port tack, I invite you to take a good look at Ingeborg (..pending a new photo of Fanshi...). In my Photo Album 8 you can have a really close view of the photo below. Note the shadows made by the topping lift.
    Fanshi’s and Ingeborg’s sail will look a bit differently since I only use a webbing boltrope at luff and leech.

    Arne


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