Why try for a light mast (stability, mast weight and rolling)

  • 05 Jul 2013 00:34
    Reply # 1333385 on 1332819
    Pete Rasmussen wrote:Heavy displacement is safe though Annie,

    Sorry, Pete, I see no evidence of this.  Look at Ming Ming, bobbing about in N Atlantic gales, sliding sideways and skittering over the surface like a storm petrel.  I felt safer in really strong conditions with a boat that gave to the weather rather than lying there being swept.  You pays your money and you takes your choice, but I don't think that one type is inherently safer than the other.

    Why not try some weight aloft next time there's no wind and a chop or at anchor in a choppy location.
     I think its a great asset.
    I reckon my topmast might come under the heading of weight aloft, although it's not excessively heavy.  Overall the rig is lighter than the bermudian rig it replaces, but the boat is no less (un)comfortableIndeed, she is surprisingly comfortable for what is effectively a 'lead mine'.   
  • 04 Jul 2013 22:12
    Reply # 1333341 on 1313268
    Deleted user
    I believe inertia is one of the forces in effect here.  We can play with this!  So even a lttle weight hauled to the top of the mast will have an effect that will be felt, experienced as a slowing down of her motion and a resistance to get initiated into motion ( inertia).  I'm interested in how this would be experienced on a tender hull.
  • 04 Jul 2013 16:53
    Reply # 1333168 on 1333115
    Anonymous member (Administrator)
    Gary King wrote:
    Arne Kverneland wrote:

    ....

    So I guess most boats have a point of sailing in which they thrive less well, and yes, any hull or keel shape which adds to roll damping should be preferred. Which is that??

    Cheers, Arne.


    Considering you can't have both stiffness and sea kindliness in a boat - its all a compromise, how about a boat where it's dynamic stability can be altered on the fly? 

    Namely: own a stiff boat for speed, then have a 20kg weight handy to run up the mast at anchor. Considering rotating inertia is proportional to distance to power of 4, that is akin to swapping your mast out with one 100kg heavier (or there abouts). Simpler than those silly flopper stopper things..

    I agree with you there, Gary, so that’s why I am interested in hull shapes with good hydrodynamic roll damping in them.

    BTW the hoisted anchor adds a roll inertia proportional to the square of the distance from the rotating axis (around the waterline?), not to the power of 4. This means that if you hoist a 20kg anchor 5m above the waterline and another 10m above the wl, the first anchor will add a roll inertia of 5 x 5 x 20= 500kgm² while the other anchor will add 10² x 20= 2000kgm². In other words, a 5kg weight hoisted 10m up will add the same inertia as a 20kg weight hoisted only 5m up.

    Arne

    PS at a couple of hours later: Gary, our last posts seem to have crossed each other and we seem to agree about inertia :-) ...

    Last modified: 04 Jul 2013 17:25 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 04 Jul 2013 16:09
    Reply # 1333154 on 1313268
    Deleted user
    I have a slight problem with the Kasten explanation of roll inertia. He says its proportional to the 4th power of the axis. But I is to the 2nd power like it says here here.

    So 20kg sack of spuds is same as switching to a mast which is 60kg heavier, but less heeling. Still a lot of difference.

    Last modified: 04 Jul 2013 16:13 | Deleted user
  • 04 Jul 2013 14:56
    Reply # 1333115 on 1333082
    Deleted user
    Arne Kverneland wrote:

    ....

    So I guess most boats have a point of sailing in which they thrive less well, and yes, any hull or keel shape which adds to roll damping should be preferred. Which is that??

    Cheers, Arne.


    Considering you can't have both stiffness and sea kindliness in a boat - its all a compromise, how about a boat where it's dynamic stability can be altered on the fly? 

    Namely: own a stiff boat for speed, then have a 20kg weight handy to run up the mast at anchor. Considering rotating inertia is proportional to distance to power of 4, that is akin to swapping your mast out with one 100kg heavier (or there abouts). Simpler than those silly flopper stopper things..
  • 04 Jul 2013 13:15
    Reply # 1333082 on 1313268
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

                                                                      Stavanger, Thursday

    I guess for smaller vessels we have two main factors that decide the comfort and safety: Natural roll frequency and roll damping

    Last thing first: Roll damping is the boat’s hydrodynamic resistance against keeping on rolling after a wave has started it. My Alo 28, Johanna, with her round bottom seems to have quite moderate roll resistance. In Norway a lot of round bottom fishing boats have been retrofitted with long shallow roll-damping bilge keels. These have proven very effective and have made it much easier for the fishermen to work in a seaway, often with the boats hove-to. I doubt if these will be so effective on sailing vessels, and I know they rob some speed as well. Maybe sailboats with long keels have better roll damping than those with fin keels? And maybe wing keels or endplates on keels will help with roll damping? I don’t know. What is sure is that improved roll damping would make any vessel more comfortable. ( .. BTW, it would not surprise me if a single chine dory hull like Badger’s have better roll damping than a round hull...)

    The positive effects of reducing the roll frequency have been well covered here. Now, in our sailboats we simply must have some ballast and some beam to carry the sails and both factors tend to speed up the roll frequency. It is therefore essential to have a mast which adds so much to the inertia, both from a safety and comfort point of view.

    The good thing with a boat with heavy displacement and narrow beam and with a stout mast is that it will have a very slow roll. This is more comfortable and also adds resistance to being knocked down. On the other hand, any roll-resisting shapes of hull or keel will be less effective in preventing the big masses from rolling when it finally has started. The result is that such boats can roll a lot (albeit slowly) when the sea is in resonance with the boat, usually at some point downwind. I guess this is the downside of the heavy displacement boat: It is not easy to dampen any motions of big masses.

    Lighter and beamier boats may be easier to knock down in a beam sea or when close-hauled, but may be more comfortable downwind. My 23’, 1.4ton Albin Viggen, Malena, was very good in a seaway, downwind. The combination of a fairly flat bottom, good directional stability and a full bow kept her from starting any tiring downwind roll in a seaway. I guess we could say that Malena’s roll damping to displacement ratio is good as she quickly settled down after ships had passed her. (Note: An un-balanced hull may add a lot to the rolling downwind, due to yawing...)

    So I guess most boats have a point of sailing in which they thrive less well, and yes, any hull or keel shape which adds to roll damping should be preferred. Which is that??

    Cheers, Arne.

    Last modified: 04 Jul 2013 17:20 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 04 Jul 2013 00:30
    Reply # 1332821 on 1313268
    Deleted user
    The  weight aloft did not increase the amount of healing, just slowed the motion.
  • 04 Jul 2013 00:26
    Reply # 1332819 on 1313268
    Deleted user
    Heavy displacement is safe though Annie, generally speaking but I think Beam is a very important aspect in regards to stability and motion.  Mine is extreme is this regard, 32 footer with 11 foot beam carried for most of the length.  Lots of volume and she's not shaped like a wineglass but more a champagne glass.  BBay has lots of weight and still has what I think is an unacceptably sharp motion in a beam chop or short beam sea.  Off Ranfurly last April I would not go forward as I thought it too "lively".  It was OK once hove to but under way not so great.  Not too bad under lots of sail but once reefed down the action deteriorated till  I was "white knuckling". 
    We had winds gusting to 25 knots here tuesday so a bit of a chop and with the weight aloft it was truly remarkable how much slower her motion was.  So we have a real large lever here that we can use to control the motion of the yacht!  Why not try some weight aloft next time there's no wind and a chop or at anchor in a choppy location.
     I think its a great asset.
  • 03 Jul 2013 23:54
    Reply # 1332795 on 1313268
    All very interesting.  And of course, we all have our preferences: I do not like a boat that sails on its ear, for example.

    Of the four monohulls that I have sailed any sort of distance/lived aboard for any lenght of time, I have this to offer:

    Sheila - 27 ft - traditional carvel (mahogany on oak) - 5 ft 8 in draught - 'long' keel/cutaway forefoot, steeply raked rudder - 5 tons displacement - 2.5 tons of lead on the bottom of the keel - tall bermudian 6/8 rig; spruce mast; galv rigging.  Stiff as a church but could roll the cups of the table at anchor.  18 ins freeboard, so wet as a half-tide rock going to windward.

    Badger - 34ft - plywood epoxy - 4 ft 6 in draught - 7 tons displacement (fully loaded) - 2.2 tons of steel keel with large wing - junk schooner rig; Douglas fir masts (30 and 33ft above deck).  Dory hull initially tender, but 'locked' once the rail a few inches from the water; so comfortable down wind that you could put a full cup of tea on the floor - generally little spray on deck.  Generally comfortable at anchor, but would heel unpleasantly in strong gusts.

    Iron Bark - 35ft - steel - 5 ft draught - 11 tons displacement (fully loaded) - long, shallow keel - about 3 tons ballast some of which was in water and diesel - gaff cutter with alloy spars and heavy st st rigging.  Round bilge (Wylo) hull tender, increasing as wind increased.  Capable of very uncomfortable rolling - lots of spray on deck in winds over F6, regardless of direction.
    Generally comfortable at anchor, though heeled dramatically in strong gusts.

    Fantail - 26ft - fibreglass - 5 ft draught - (about) 3 tons displacement - fin and spade - 1.5 tons lead ballast on bottom of keel - junk sloop rig; alloy base; Douglas fir topmast. Very stiff; surprisingly comfortable (usually) downwind; dry  on all points of sail until the wind top of F4 to windward, F5 downwind.  Generally comfortable at anchor; stands up to strong gusts.

    Personally - I'm not a fan of heavy displacement and believe its seakindliness to be over-rated.
  • 03 Jul 2013 20:17
    Reply # 1332688 on 1313268
    I agree - great article. Good luck with your experiments, Pete.
    Cheers,
    Kurt
       " ...there is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing as simply messing about in junk-rigged boats" 
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