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Battens with horizontally rotating tails.

  • 10 Apr 2013 01:07
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    Reply # 1264590 on 1261013
    Anonymous member
    Coming to the junket?  Hey, that's great news.  Footprints should be there with her big, single sail: a similar size to your boat, but much lighter displacement.  Paul isn't sure if he can get La Chica rigged in time, which is a great shame, because she is much closer to your vessel.  But you could sail over to Pine Harbour after the junket - only a short distance - and see his rig, which is at the other end of the spectrum - a Van Loan-style schooner.  Shoestring, with her three masts, might also intrigue you!!
  • 09 Apr 2013 12:38
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    Reply # 1263939 on 1261013
    Deleted user
    Well I've decided to go to the Junket at Waiheke.  I'll set of tomorrow morning and look like running for 24 hours then a light headwind for a day or so.  Really looking forward to sailing aboard a Junk rigged yacht!
  • 09 Apr 2013 10:35
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    Reply # 1263892 on 1263872
    Anonymous member
    Pete Rasmussen wrote:Oops, brain fade strikes again.  With the above mentioned Junk sails 32 feet by 12 would actually give more like 850 sq ft which would be ample, even less say 32 by 12 giving 730 sq ft.  That would bring her SAD up from 13 to around 19!!
    In a single sail say 21 feet by 32 feet gives 670 odd sq ft and the ability to run!
    Junk sailers must love running , I think, myself I perefer bashing to windward with the bermudan rig as she about sails herself, one ocky strap for self steering and alls sweet.  Turn mine downwind and if in light conditions its simply awful to sail.  I don't have a spinnaker and actually find them a bit daunting.
    So one mast and a split rig would make me a happy puppy indeed David.  Do you think 21 feet along the foot would be unwieldly?
    Well, my single sail is nearer to 23 feet across, and since I swing it across the mast for more balance downwind, I don't get any balance problems, just as a split rig doesn't. There aren't any handling problems, except that the loadings are high and I need my 30:1 winches for the halyard and upper sheet (I use an upper and a lower sheet to improve the set when heavily reefed, and I recommend this for a big rig). My sail is 635 sq ft, to drive a displacement of about 8 tons, and it's not too much. My SA/D is not generous.
  • 09 Apr 2013 09:27
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    Reply # 1263872 on 1261013
    Deleted user
    Oops, brain fade strikes again.  With the above mentioned Junk sails 32 feet by 12 would actually give more like 850 sq ft which would be ample, even less say 32 by 12 giving 730 sq ft.  That would bring her SAD up from 13 to around 19!!
    In a single sail say 21 feet by 32 feet gives 670 odd sq ft and the ability to run!
    Junk sailers must love running , I think, myself I perefer bashing to windward with the bermudan rig as she about sails herself, one ocky strap for self steering and alls sweet.  Turn mine downwind and if in light conditions its simply awful to sail.  I don't have a spinnaker and actually find them a bit daunting.
    So one mast and a split rig would make me a happy puppy indeed David.  Do you think 21 feet along the foot would be unwieldly?
  • 09 Apr 2013 08:37
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    Reply # 1263851 on 1261013
    Anonymous member
    Pete,
    She may be a candidate for a split rig, which will put the mast in a very similar position to the present rig. That way, you would get a powerful rig as big as was needed, and with a lot of balance so that running is easy.
  • 09 Apr 2013 08:24
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    Reply # 1263838 on 1261013
    Deleted user
    With a Jib, Staysail and Main she carries 505 sq ft say 550 with the genoa.  so not a huge amount of sail on a ten ton yacht but she goes well.  in 5 to 8 knots on the nose in flat water she will move along at 3 to 4 knots.  Once the wind gets around 17 or 20 knots she will carry hull speed which is 7.2 knots.
    If I had 2 Junk sails say 32 feet high by 12 feet will give  384 sq ft which is really not enough.  I'm not keen on sails over the cockpit so I really need more efficient or powerful sails.  With 384 feet of  junk sail she would likely still be better running than at present, well maybe.  She is very well ballasted so could possibly carry more height in the masts though that is something I'm reluctant to do.  Seems she's not a good candidate for a Junk Rig after all.  At present her mast is situated at the bulkhead between the forward cabin and the saloon.
    I had mistakenly thought I may be able to increase my sail area but see now thats pretty well impossible.  So smaller more powerful sails or stay as it is I think.
  • 09 Apr 2013 05:03
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    Reply # 1263752 on 1261013
    Anonymous member
    I think the problem here is that it's very difficult to fit a big enough two-masted rig on a short, heavy hull. The room needed for sheeting the foresail is space that could be used for sail area. 

    I'm tempted to say that a big single sail would be best here, but this would depend on the accommodation layout. 
  • 09 Apr 2013 00:51
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    Reply # 1263597 on 1261013
    Deleted user
    Thanks kindly for the advice Arne, Annie and Brian.  I do hear you and I agree simplicity is a beautiful thing.  More than likely I would go with a cambered sail, which seems to be very good indeed, at the very least initially to get up and running quickly.
    I do however need lots of power, as Arne suggested Lots of camber, due to heavy displacement so I'm looking at the most efficient and powerful setup to minimize mast height and sail size.  When compared the solid wing sail is the most efficient and powerful in this comparison....http://smalltridesign.com/masts/rig-mast_options.html    ... but
    as the article mentions one needs to lay the yacht on its side when not racing :).  Now seems to me that the junk rig is suitable to this type of configuration but can easily be reefed so maybe this would be worth playing with.  I have a dinghy that I could build a centre board and rudder, mast and have some interesting fun.  The above article mentions a speed against the wind ratio for a bermudan mainsail as 0.85 and the hard wingsail at 2.4 so seems to me that maybe able to reduce the sail by one half and still have more power with the wingsail.  Now that could come from the height or the cord or a bit of both.
    The way I imagine setting the wingsails up is forward mast with a larger cord sail and the other, central, mast having a smaller sail,same height less cord so that they act as one sail maybe, in light air and then in heavy weather the forward sails could be reefed leaving a smaller sail with flatter shape to battle on with.  This reduced size setup may leave one a bit underpowered running in light air so a spinnaker might be necessary.
      I would love smaller sails if I could get the same power and that may just be possible with one of these modern configurations.  I think they hold great promise.
  • 08 Apr 2013 09:59
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    Reply # 1262871 on 1261013
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

                                                                    Stavanger, Monday.

    It is easy to fall in love with the wingsail idea; it just looks like a logical step forward. However, unless you are to race your boat around the cans, I suggest you go for the simpler (to make and maintain) ‘real’ junkrig. Your boat seems to be of some displacement, so I would suggest you go for either a 2-stick rig like that of Zebedee, or for a sloop rig. I guess the 2-masted rig makes most sense if you will be doing a lot of offshore voyaging. In any case, I suggest you make the sails with plenty of camber, as on Zebedee’s new set of sails. Here at 'my' page  (letters dated 20120704 and 20121006) you can see how I and a friend made and rigged a new sloop junksail. The construction work took less than 6 days and it definitely resulted in a powerful and easily-handled sail.

    But David made the wingsail work very well, you may say. Yes, but David is David and has a huge experience with all sorts of rigs - and even he has moved back to the JR now.

    Soo... if you mainly are an experimenter, then by all means, try the wing sail, but if you mainly have trouble-free cruising in mind, go for the JR.

    Arne

    　

    Last modified: 08 Apr 2013 10:02 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 07 Apr 2013 22:29
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    Reply # 1262480 on 1261013
    Anonymous member
    If you are thinking of following the wingsail option, I think you need to consider in what context you'll be sailing the boat.  David sailed a lot of miles with his rig and found it really easy to handle and powerful; on the other hand, it was made up of a lot of constituent parts and he had his fair share of breakages.  In the end, as far as I understand it, he decided that the cambered single-sided sail was more robust for extended offshore use.

    A wing sail is also a lot more complicated a project than even a cambered sail.  Alan on Zebedee had never made sails before, but knocked over two - of a similar size to what you'd be looking at - in a week of normal working days, using a hand-crank sewing machine.  Admittedly he had the spars, but no-one could describe it as difficult to provide battens and booms for a junk rig, even if the mast and yard are more of a challenge.

    As ever, you pays your money and you takes your choice.
    Last modified: 07 Apr 2013 22:29 | Anonymous member
       " ...there is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing as simply messing about in junk-rigged boats" 
                                                               - the Chinese Water Rat

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