Junkettes, batten attachment, sail position relative to mast (formerly' Luff Hauling Confusion)'

  • 25 Mar 2013 21:56
    Reply # 1251588 on 1251288
    Brian Kerslake wrote: The only one I can foresee, which was I think pointed out by Kurt Ulmer, is the potential difficulty on a long cruise of withdrawing a panel at sea for repairs that you couldn't do on deck. It can be a two person job on a pontoon. Could perhaps be designed out though by breaking the tracks at the middle of the battens to give some gripping and tugging space.

    Having been in putting the separate panels onto Aphrodite's battens, I can assure you that the operation would be impossible to carry out at sea.  It's not that you have to slide the sail panel through, so much as you have to keep the top and bottom battens in place.  Starting from scratch, you at least have one fixed batten and one moving.  Trying to take out a panel from the middle of the sail would be a nightmare, and putting one back even worse!

    Paradox by the way is a Freedom 39 Pilothouse Schooner. We found the mast positions were just about ideal for the conversion leaving the CE etc in just about the original positions. I'd imagine most schooner conversions would be similar. An alternative attachment system would be to pass lashings round the batten through two adjacent panels, with some kind of grippy knot or stop so the lashing doesn't slide along the batten. 
    At the risk of sounding tediously pedantic, the average twin-masted junk is a periauger rig, not a schooner.  That is to say that the foremast is very well forward or in the eyes of the boat.  I have a feeling that Jim is thinking of buying a standard schooner, ie one designed to have at least one jib: in this case the masts - certainly the foremast - are unlikely to be in the right place.
  • 25 Mar 2013 16:18
    Reply # 1251288 on 1248061
    Deleted user
    Jim, we're all non standard folks here... Jonathan is correct in saying that my boat Paradox and Tom's have separate panels with bolt ropes top and bottom slid into tracks. He seems happy with that setup, but I haven't really done enough cruising with the system yet to pick up many problems. The only one I can foresee, which was I think pointed out by Kurt Ulmer, is the potential difficulty on a long cruise of withdrawing a panel at sea for repairs that you couldn't do on deck. It can be a two person job on a pontoon. Could perhaps be designed out though by breaking the tracks at the middle of the battens to give some gripping and tugging space. An alternative attachment system would be to pass lashings round the batten through two adjacent panels, with some kind of grippy knot or stop so the lashing doesn't slide along the batten. 

    Paradox by the way is a Freedom 39 Pilothouse Schooner. We found the mast positions were just about ideal for the conversion leaving the CE etc in just about the original positions. I'd imagine most schooner conversions would be similar. We have a bit of a problem with the fore sheets catching on the forward ends of the main's battens, but that's just a bug to work out.

    Regarding the position of the sails cf the masts, the Freedom cat schooner that Paradox was had her original sails in tracks. We were so glad to get rid of those sails, after 30-odd years of messing around in junks, first as a family with two small kids and then just the two of us. You'd be unlikely to regret the change. One thing about letting the sails extend slightly forward of each mast is you get some balance, i.e. the  area forward of the mast catches the wind and helps damp sail movement; not so noticeable on a schooner but still worth retaining if you can. If you haven't got Practical Junk Rig yet, it's a must.
    Last modified: 25 Mar 2013 16:48 | Deleted user
  • 23 Mar 2013 20:06
    Reply # 1250167 on 1248061
    Deleted user

    Jonathan;  Thanks for the info. Glad you mentioned a practical example of the potential use of pannelled sails, besides the obviously easier fabrication and repairs while out on the 'chuck.

    In reviewing the location of junk masts relative to that of the conventional in Hasler's book, the postion of schooner masts was only "abaft one percent". This is the MAIN reason I am presently fancying the modified junk rig as I think it opens more opportunity to find a nice schooner and convert it to junk without having to move the masts. I am guessing that a modified junk rig on existing masts would provide similar CLR and CE so as to not undo the handling characteristics of the hull? I will look into the refernces you provided for other members boats.

  • 23 Mar 2013 16:56
    Reply # 1250107 on 1248061

    Jim

    I know of two members who have junk rigged sails with separate panels:  Brian Kerslake, our Webmaster, and Tom Wallace.  I think that both of them use tracks not lashings.  I was quite taken with the idea.  I had seen it some years ago in Plymouth on a Sigma 36 deck saloon boat rigged as a junk schooner.   The builder had used double grooved genoa foil extrusions as battens.  (He was a foreman at Marine Projects, aka Moody, and had access to off cuts!)  I thought that it would then be easier to remove all sails eg for winter storage.  As it happens I ended up with one piece sails and as a result in a couple of weeks will have to remove the whole sail, yard, boom and batten bundle in order to comply with the regulations for the boatyard where I need to be lifted out, where all sails have to be removed.  But I think Brian used track added to battens.  I think that this added weight and cost.  Nothing comes without disadvantages.  However, he or Tom would no doubt tell you more.

    Jonathan

  • 23 Mar 2013 16:08
    Reply # 1250081 on 1248061
    Deleted user

    Well, Robert Tracy, et al; there is a lot of info and experience here I ought to catch up on.  I am still refining my preferences from small boat experience. I see where some of the problems would arise, like entanglements at the back of the mast. I have looled at diffferent types of boom yokes from the heavy wood styles used in a gaff to something more refined in metal such as a ring with a welded tail-piece for each batten. I am very uncertain of the stresses in this area.

    Also, does anyone construct their sail from panels and lash each panel seperately onto the battens or is it ALWAYS one whole sheet? Thanks again!

     

     

  • 22 Mar 2013 19:44
    Reply # 1249626 on 1248061
    Jim,
    I would think that what Bob Tracy has said, and what Gary King has reminded me of, would be quite enough to put me off the idea of using a junkette rig. It seems to me to have a lot of the disadvantages of the gaff rig, and doesn't compensate by providing the advantages of the junk rig. If it's easy sailing and simplicity of construction and operation you're after, then the tried and tested Hasler/McCleod planform provides it. If you want easy sailing, but more performance, and are happy with a bit more complexity of construction, there are further options - cambered panels, fanned planforms, split-junk, etc. But for me, those options wouldn't include the junkette.
  • 22 Mar 2013 15:47
    Reply # 1249417 on 1248061
    P.S. That was a 3 masted cat rig .so,s 
  • 22 Mar 2013 15:29
    Reply # 1249398 on 1248061
        Hello Jim . I push a junket around mostly experimental , I thought I might cut out some of the rope work on the junk and see if it is more efficient . I,m a J. R. member so you will find some Imfo on the boat there plus there,s a bit in issue 61 . My fore sail is open battened and the main is sleeved . my battens  are cut about 6 inches short of the mast , reasons they tended to over shoot the masts and cause lock ups when raising sail as I use cars in the tracks this causes a funnel behind the mast up the sail , whether this helps or not I just have not found out yet .   I have not tried to attach the battens to cars but I suppose its possible , my yards and booms are on home made lengthened universal jointed cars to spread the loads .    To get the sail up I use two halyards ,one for the sail and one on the yard , both halyards are latched before going into  the same winch , keeping the yard parallel  stops jam ups , using a cunningham and the yard I can tension the sail .   Down haul I only use one on head sail , if you take her off the wind , but the yard  must be level when it comes down .   To drop a batten just drop both halyards at the same time , the sail can be de powered quick by dropping the yard , looks ugly but works  .       My boat is a bit blunt at the front so a little bit slow to wind ward , pointing up she goes till she stops  , broad side she needs about 10 kts , down hill shes fast . . My battens resting no trouble .    Because my sails are on cars they take up some area near the masts so they can be used as storm sails when at rest .   Junk booms when tacking come around slowely , mine are a little faster , pointy ones are wicket .   Yards  on true junks need to be a bit stronger than mine maybe because I use two halyards  .    Work wise junk might be the easy,ist  , mine next , pointy things the hardest .   Boat shape and sail area help with speed  . use the spec for you .  I followed a 3 masted cat last year and pointed just as high though a bit slower .  I,m 73 single handed and don,t need exercise . all the best . 
  • 22 Mar 2013 02:43
    Reply # 1249060 on 1248061
    Deleted user
    Reads like the rig Phil Bolger calls a "Chinese gaff". Seems to be a sensible idea but Jim Melcher on "Alert" sailed one across the Atlantic and had trouble with it, vowing to change to a regular junk rig. Not sure if he ever did before he passed.
  • 22 Mar 2013 02:27
    Reply # 1249054 on 1248061
    Deleted user

    Yes, my first post, thanks. Wife is interested to upend the farm and sell it all for a boat and a new life in the next 3 - 5 years. I have been lurking all over the 'web for a few years gathering info. Am holding breath and fingers crossed that she won't change her mind ..

    Anyway, junk-ette, huh? It struck me that dowhhauls would be a reasonable exchange for no parrells of any sort. I had assumed that downhauls would not be *essential* for sail shape and am guessing they're required for reefing. Does this sail type reef just as easily as the typical junk rig? This is one of the required characteristics and why I am looking at junks. Not to mention, we are both non-standard folks. I will now search for the junk-ette and hope that someone will post references to these interesting rigs.

       " ...there is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing as simply messing about in junk-rigged boats" 
                                                               - the Chinese Water Rat

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