Sailmaking detail questions

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  • 10 Mar 2013 01:36
    Reply # 1238714 on 1238226
    Best of all is no seams at all in the body of the panel. Seams fail due to UV degradation and due to chafe from the lifts. Therefore, if a seam along the line of the batten is protected from both of these by a batten patch or pocket on both sides of the sail, it is invulnerable. If I were making the ultimate offshore sail, I would put a batten patch on both sides, and then short sections of batten pocket, with short gaps between them, over the top of the patches. Since you're making a schooner rig that doesn't need to move fore and aft on the mast, you just need to leave a wider gap in the pockets to accommodate the mast, and fender the batten.

    Pockets versus grommets - the way I see it, to put grommets in, you need to add two thicknesses of patch to the sail, resulting in three thicknesses ( to save on cutting, you can make the patch as one piece, folded in half, if you don't want to go to the ultimate, and have a patch each side). Then you have to buy the grommets (more expense), and put in a lot of labour to set them in place and to lash in the battens. To put pockets on, you need to add a patch and a pocket, making three thicknesses again (again, to save on cutting, you can make the patch and pocket as one piece of cloth, folded so that one side, the pocket side, is wider than the other). So a similar amount of cloth used and labour put in, as far as the sewing goes, but with the pockets, it stops there. Just slide the battens in.

    It is possible to make a panel with no seams, with the various cloths that are 61" or 64" wide - but it wastes cloth, and it puts the threads at an angle to the leech, which is not ideal. However, the angle will not be more than 10 degrees, which is what may be found at the top and bottom of the leech of a bermudan mainsail with some roach, so it is acceptable practice.

    So if you want to use  the minimum amount of cloth, vertical seams are still best. I wouldn't want to put horizontal seams in the body of a panel - yet they do it routinely on all bermudan sails, and get away with it. This may be because the UV resistance of sailmaking thread has improved. I always use black thread, for its greater UV resistance, and don't really consider that the life of the thread is of major concern to me these days. 

    When I talk of percentages, I mean of the yard or batten length. Your sails are going to be about 12 ft wide, and so 1% is something near to 1.5".
  • 09 Mar 2013 23:43
    Reply # 1238665 on 1238226
    Deleted user
    Eminent good sense, David, thank you for the very detailed reply.

    My main concern with the vertical seaming versus panel-at-a-time type attachments (and the main reason I was thinking to go with grommets) is that I've heard that vertical seams as far up the sail as possible make a more durable sail - one that can still be used if a seam rips.  Is this no longer the recommended offshore "belt and suspenders" way?  Are we at a point where a properly done horizontal seam is no less reliable?

    Also, you mention percents when doing rounds... is that percent of the local panel size (e.g. the batten-center-to-batten-center distance) or percent of the total sail height, or something else entirely?  And if it is batten-center-to-batten-center, how do I measure for panels that have one dimension at the leech and another at the luff?
  • 09 Mar 2013 18:16
    Reply # 1238527 on 1238226
    Daniel,
    For a long distance serious cruising boat, my view is that the luff and leech should have some weight and stiffness to them, to slow down any flutter that might happen. A fluttering leech is the way to destroy a junk sail, over time. My preferred way is to add a very wide tabling. Webbing is absolutely unecessary, except in cases where the sheet is tending to chafe the leech, when a short piece might be added on top of the tabling. I would suggest that you cut a length of Odyssey into five equal widths of about a foot wide, and then fold them lengthways to leave four inches on one side, eight inches on the other. Then use double sided tape to secure this strip to the luff and leech, and sew close to the edge of the sail, and close to each of the inner edges. Make wide overlaps of sections of this strip at each batten position, and you are well on the way towards providing the necessary patching at these points.

    The other thing that will cause a fluttering leech is to cut the sail with straight edges to the panels. The pull of the halyard tends to bend the yard, and I always add at least 1% rounding to the head of the sail. Up to 2% can be used without problems. Wherever there is a seam between panels, I add 0.5% rounding, with the maximum depth towards the luff. This makes all the difference, though it might only be 3/4" . It doesn't show up as meaningful camber, but it keeps the leech taut. For this reason, I suggest that you set the topmost sheeted batten at a slightly steeper angle than the lower ones, and cut the three top panels separately, with minimal rounding, and then cut the lower four panels together, with minimal rounding top and bottom.

    Two lines of zigzag stitching per seam is fine. There's never any need for triple stitching, the loads are low in the body of the cloth. The enemy of the seam stitching is chafe from the topping lifts, and three lines of stitching chafe just as easily as two. 

    If you are going for grommets and lacing (not my preference, pockets are easier to do and take less time and money), you need to cut some strips about four inches wide and sew them on along the line of the batten. I would recommend at least three thicknesses in total, to hold grommets without them pulling through. The threads of the cloth must be in line with the pull, or you will get some very weird creasing. Don't reckon on tensioning the sail out along the battens very much, or you will induce creases. Just make the battens 1% longer than the position on the sail, fix them flush at the leech, and apply only minimum pull as you lash the forward end. One of the hardest jobs is to roll up a full sail, to pass it under the machine as you sew these strips on. That's why it makes sense to make separate panels, even if they have vertical seams, and sew them together with a four inch overlap, and adding a four inch batten strip as you go (thus getting three thicknesses, with the batten strip protecting the panel seams from the batten - important). If you make the lower four  panels all in one, I'd add the batten strips to the three batten positions on this piece, before joining on the upper panels, one at a time, and adding their batten strips, one at a time.
    Last modified: 09 Mar 2013 18:54 | Anonymous member
  • 09 Mar 2013 15:10
    Reply # 1238452 on 1238226
    Deleted user
    Before we go too far with this discussion, I should clarify:

    As for camber, I think I'll pass. This is for a long range offshore boat, not a short-tacking bay racer. If it were a sloop rig I'd be using a fantail sail, but it's a schooner, so I'm going with a more Badger-like arrangement (modest high-aspect H&M rig with a slighly lower yard angle and a single top batten). I'm interested in longevity and durability so I'll be sewing the panels vertically, which doesn't give much option for camber, plus I can appreciate what Kurt wrote in a recent JRA magazine article about the durability of flat-cut sails for offshore use. Maybe in the future I'll save up some dimes and play around with camber (and other sail plans like a balance or dipping lug) but for now, it's going to be a more traditional sail shape as my main suite.

    So that might change a little bit of what you all are saying, since the sails will be flat-cut.
  • 09 Mar 2013 12:22
    Reply # 1238379 on 1238226
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

                                                                             Stavanger, Sat

    Gary K, I am afraid I don't share your view that the sail and leech tabling should share the load from the sheets. In practice, the wind load in the sail cloth is very low compared to in a conventional sail, so will not blow out and form a hooked leech. Hooked leech wiil rather be a result of the cutting of each (cambered) panel. The boltrope of the leech should not stretch at all. If you look up a letter I wrote ("20080715 Summer letter...") on page 2 and 3, you will see what happens if the the boltrope stretches at the leech. The letter sits in my files section here.

    If you have a look at the second letter about the new sail for Edmond Dantes ("A white sail...part 2") on page 12 (in the same files section), you will see a quite good camber without a hooked leech. The round along the battens of each panel was carefully shaped so that the after 40% formed a straight line. The webbing used for boltrope was much stiffer than the one used on Johanna's sail.

    Sooo, making a junk sail is very different from making a western sail.

    Cheers, Arne

    Last modified: 09 Mar 2013 12:35 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 09 Mar 2013 05:56
    Reply # 1238321 on 1238226
    Deleted user
    We went the tabling route rather than with bolt rope (or webbing). When the panels stretch a little, its best the tabling can stretch a little too, if not there will be some bagging which in the leech is not good. There isnt much tension on the luff of a JR sail, so a rigid luff bolt rope isn't really needed. (All the pics I've seen the luffs are always slack and bent)
    We sewed a few triangles of scrap in the corners of the top triangular panels and top parallelogram panel for storm reinforcement.
    Last modified: 09 Mar 2013 05:57 | Deleted user
  • 09 Mar 2013 05:17
    Reply # 1238308 on 1238226
    Hi Daniel,

    With all due respect to Tom Colvin, just quietly forget about his book. Very little there applies to cambered sails (I have his book also) and even for flat sails his recommendations tend to give you hugely over built and heavy sails. I recommend you read Arne's sail making articles. They give good advise and the methods are proven. Zebedee, January BOTM has sails built with Arne's methods and Alan is very happy with them.
    Last modified: 09 Mar 2013 06:47 | Anonymous member
  • 09 Mar 2013 02:50
    Reply # 1238261 on 1238226
    Read Arne's articles on sail making for basic cambered panel sails.
    http://www.junkrigassociation.org/arne
    I used Odyssey III for my sail and didn't allow for any stretch. The bolt rope around the edge of the sail takes all the stress and I used a double layer of 50mm seatbelt webbing.
    This whole section will give you a goldmine of information.
    http://www.junkrigassociation.org/info_page
  • 09 Mar 2013 01:22
    Message # 1238226
    Deleted user
    Ok, it's time to take the draft plan for the sails and start thinking about how I'll turn it into a finished set! Exciting? Yes.. and also very nervous-making.

    I've sewn triangular sails before, so I'm not unfamiliar with sailmaking principles and process, but I've never made a junk sail, so I'm sure some things are different.

    I'm in possession of Tom Colvin's Sailmaking book, which I understand is an excellent work on the subject. That said, I'm finding a few things a bit tricky...

    First of all, batten length versus sail size (plotted) versus sail size (target) versus stretched sail size....

    I'm using modern polyester cover cloth, Odyssey III, as my sail fabric. How much stretch should I plan for, and should I make the battens long and trim them down or make the sail slightly small and stretch it?

    Odyssey III is a wide fabric, 64", and as a result this would likely need two "false seams" in order to grommet at appropriate intervals to support the battens - is it better to cut the fabric in thirds width-wise and seam, or to make the false seams, or to simply sew the panels as they are and put a chafing strip the length of the battens to hold the grommets? Which is generally easier/faster/more straightforward?

    How many stitch rows are recommended in the seams? I'm running them vertically, following the leech, so they turn at the next-to-top and top battens. For the vertical seams I was assuming two would be sufficient, with three rows where the seam turns?

    I remember Annie mentioning something about over-reinforcing her luff when first making sails with Odyssey III.  What is the recommended amount of sail edge reinforcement? I was planning on doing the tabling recommended by Colvin, unless there's a better way?

    That's it for now... I'm sure there will be more!

    Thanks so much!
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