mehitabel's motor system

  • 07 Dec 2012 19:52
    Reply # 1154641 on 1152590
    Hello Flutterby,

    There are a few areas I'd like to cruise, where we might have trials beyond just delay, without ready power. 

    Our native BC's inside passage, especially in summer but the currents run as fast all year. Chile, but I might just be nervous because it looks like BC with gales every day. European canals, for obvious reasons. Brittany. Mediterranean? should be okay. But now I'm dreaming...

    For the next year, we'll be here in NZ and in the trade~blessed Pacific Islands. Then hopefully on our way to distant problematical spots. Until we get there, I think we're fine. But with compromises.

    Cheers,
    Kurt
  • 07 Dec 2012 19:37
    Reply # 1154630 on 1152590
    Deleted user

    On the subject of motors Footprints is also a little different for a boat of her size in that she has a 9.9hp high thrust Yamaha 4 stroke outboard in a well. When I originally bought the boat the outboard was only 8hp which was inadequate. I looked at all the options for replacement including a diesel but in the end spent only and extra $2000 upgrading to a new higher horse power outboard which I am very happy with. I estimate it probably gives performance equal to a 20hp diesel and uses about the same quantity of fuel. A big advantage of the outboard is that when sailing or not using the boat the motor can be lifted out of the water which results in a reduction of drag and less maintenance because of no prop fouling. Also as with Kurts setup there is no smelly diesel in the interior of the boat and no space taken up by the motor. Unlike Kurts electric motor I do get some battery charging capability. Perhaps if I had seen Kurt's setup before getting my new motor I would have liked to try the electric motor option. Kurt has to be congratulated in achieving a workable and practical amateur built electric motor system where most professionals seem to have not succeeded.

    Also maybe of interest to some people, while surfing the net the other day I happened across a Star brand 10hp diesel outboard made in India. Unfortunatly it is an air cooled motor and so could be quite noisy, but I often wonder whay no mainstream manufacturers have produced small capacity diesel outboards suitable for auxillary engines, mind you it would be difficult to improve on the efficiency and excellence of engineering of the Yamaha outboards. 

  • 07 Dec 2012 19:09
    Reply # 1154604 on 1152590
    Deleted user
    Kurt, I admire your choices very much. Mine sure ended up different!

    I was wanting to build a diesel-electric boat years ago...but instead we bought Flutterby whose 30HP Yanmar is 6~7 years old and well behaved. I almost wish it was due for replacement instead.

    On the other hand...I've motored up and down the Atlantic ICW, which has been both enjoyable and maddening. I've also done the inside passage from Seattle to SE Alaska on two sailboats (one each direction). That was an incredible trip! Doing any of these trips using sails, or using electricity generated onboard would have taken 2~5 times as long at best. Typical travel days were motoring 30~70 miles.

    These trips would not have been possible as I took them with your system...unless you add the generator as well.
  • 07 Dec 2012 18:21
    Reply # 1154583 on 1152590
    Gary,

    Our 48V battery bank weighs 250kg. 

    The 8 batteries are set forward of the old diesel's mount, 10cm from the hull. I'd double it without overload worries, only cost worries, and the angst of one more step away from minimalism...

    [This info added to technical stuff.]

    Cheers,
    Kurt

  • 07 Dec 2012 18:07
    Reply # 1154562 on 1152590
    Hi Mark,

    You asked: "What is the maximum wind speed that you can motor against?"

    Most practical point! Of course. Your question woke me up this morning.

    I have to say I don't know. First because I haven't specifically tested for it, and second because we have no wind meter. I suppose third because I'm more likely to trust anchor over motor, diesel or electric, historically, so we've sat out some strong winds instead of moving anchor.

    "Slowly into quite a lot of wind, but not for hours." will have to do for now. 

    We only ever had a 20HP diesel motor, so compared to most 40-footers we were handicapped from the start. I should pretend we still have it, and see what I dare to try motoring into now. The crew can make the sound effects. 

    (12 tonne, 12m pilothouse schooner)

    I can say that with the larger propeller, I've been impressed - we can motor into more wind than previously. And that the foremast and bundle have always made it a delicate steering job, with the head wanting to fall off.

    I will remember your question.

    Cheers,
    Kurt
    Last modified: 07 Dec 2012 18:52 | Anonymous member
  • 07 Dec 2012 13:54
    Reply # 1154429 on 1152590

    Kurt,

    It is great to see people brave enough to move away from smelly infernal combustion.  Expanding on David's concerns, what is the maximum wind speed that you can motor against?

  • 07 Dec 2012 03:12
    Reply # 1154135 on 1152590
    Hi David,

    If you think it's appropriate to attach that tech info to the journal article, sure. I'll edit it in place just a little, soon, and you can grab it whenever.

    Tough choice, whether to add a whole diesel system after having gotten through an electric conversion. Since my decision is not to, I take on a burden of, let's call it conservative seamanship, to stay safe. Lucky New Zealand is windy. 

    A friend in Whangarei who has an electric sailing catamaran is adding diesel generation, for about the cost of one entire diesel propulsion system. Cats are a bit special in that the generator and batteries can be in one central set, and the propellers two.

    Somebody mentioned reliability with respect to electric systems. Once wired and tested, I think it's extremely high in the sense of the key working. But I still give the prop a quick whirl every time, to be sure.

    My charging policy is to try to keep the dedicated propulsion bank full, even at the expense of the house bank. As you imply, though, we might not be ready for two intense motors across the lagoon, in the same night.

    Cheers,
    Kurt
  • 07 Dec 2012 02:13
    Reply # 1154103 on 1152590
    Thanks, Kurt. We might usefully append this to the first article. What do you think?

    I really don't like infernal combustion engines. I don't like the diesel fuel, the oil, the black dirt, the fumes, the smell, the noise. I'd love to be able to use an alternative. I'd love quiet, clean propulsion with plenty of torque.

    I don't use the motor much. Fuel use is about 14 litres a month, and I last filled the tank in May. Yet I still can't make the electric propulsion figures add up for me. True, the majority of the usage is in short bursts, to get out of harbour, but then I think of the times when quality of life has been improved by 6 hours of motoring (getting in before dark, beating the ebb, getting myself to where there is wind, rather than slatting around in the windshadow of an island, etc.). Not often is safety involved, but I'd want to know that if I had to motor hard to shift anchorages, having been caught out by a windshift, I could do it again in a couple of hours if I needed to. That seems to need a diesel/electric system, rather than relying on solar/wind charging. And I'm back where I started. Pity.

    But if I kept my boat in a marina, wnet out for a sail, came back and plugged into the mains power to recharge - I'd be talking to Thunderstruck.
    Last modified: 07 Dec 2012 02:21 | Anonymous member
  • 06 Dec 2012 23:30
    Reply # 1154037 on 1152590
    Some Details of mehitabel's Installation, and Results

    Batteries - Concorde SunXtender 6V x 8 in a row for 48V nominal.

    Rated for 5000 cycles to 20% discharge; 1200 cycles to 80% discharge.
    "220Amphours" at 24hr rate (drawing 9A) but practically...

    204Ahrs at 8hr rate (drawing ~25A) - so usefully, 9.8kWhrs.

    At that latter rate, mehitabel's been going at roughly 2.5+ knots in flat calm, has gone maybe 20 nautical miles, and the batteries are totally dead. (So we don't do it that way. We very seldom go even half that long.)

    Our 48V battery bank weighs 250kg. 

    The 8 batteries are set forward of the old diesel's mount, 10cm from the hull. I'd double it without overload worries, only cost worries, and the angst of one more step away from minimalism...

    Total Solar Panels - 520 Watts, with fancy MPPT Solar controllers to 12V house bank, which stores 440 Ahrs = 5.3kWhrs.

    Wind Generator - SW WindPower Breeze 48V - 200 Watts continuous when it's windy, around 20 knots I think. (no wind instruments...)

    If all those inputs are working at max, we can charge the batteries to full after a 50% discharge, in about 7 hours. Never happens. 2 or three days would be roughly right, but 50% discharges are actually very rare. Usually more like 10%, which can recharge in a sunny-and-windy afternoon. 

    'Soaking up diesel' like this, is as hard a job as 'letting the glue set.'

    Battery Charger - Meanwell 600A 48V from a Xantrex 1800W inverter.

    This is about 75% efficient, drawing from the house bank. So actually, sunny late morning through afternoon...

    Fuelled Generator
    (Not installed. I'm not sure whether we'll finally install the petrol-propane Honda motor with DC generator. It could keep up with ~3 knots as long as fuel lasted. I have an even better generator component to try... I haven't felt the need sufficiently yet. To Tonga next year? We'll likely be fine without it.)

    Motor - Mars ME0913 Dual Stator, Brushless

    Its maximum output is 10.5kW=14HP Continuous; 21.6 kW=29HP for 2 minutes. Heaps of torque. Heaps, at any RPM. Maximum RPM is 2550.

    Controller - Sevcon Gen4-4845, which is a good match to the motor's maximums. It's mounted on a good heat-sink, and only ever gets warm.

    I slightly regret that the motor is useless without the electronic controller. Brushed DC motors can be hooked up directly to batteries and will go.

    Drive Train - Belt reduction 3:1 motor:propeller, 2550:850 at maximum.
    (2:1 is recommended if speed is a priority &/or a small propeller is used.)

    Propeller - Kiwi Feathering Propeller 18.5" diameter. Pitch (in forward) is adjustable.
    Our big prop doesn't get to maximum RPM. We're only going about 5 knots at maximum throttle, but we're hard to stop...

    Performance
    Now, before I give performance figures, don't take these super-seriously. 

    Preparing to design the motor system, we towed the boat with another yacht, measuring the force to pull mehitabel at up to 5 knots. Calculated... deducted propeller drag... guessed efficiencies... to arrive at predictions of electrical power required to go at various speeds. I recommend the exercise, because the predictions came true!

    Predictions:
    Knots ::: Electrical Power Input (at batteries) 
    Total efficiency assumed: 44%

    1   ::: sheesh! Hardly any. A Yuloh would do fine.
    2+ ::: 0.5kW
    3+ ::: 1.5kW
    4   ::: ~3kW
    5   ::: ~6kW
    6   ::: ~10kW

    Actuals:
    Tested figures have met or exceeded predictions, markedly exceeded since installing the big Kiwi propeller. 

    I need to test more. It's on the list. But bringing together a clean bottom, polished propeller, crew to take readings, flat water, working calibrated knotmeter, time and inclination... well, we've done a few tests with some rigour, and none perfectly. 

    I now reckon with the new propeller we may assume 50% efficiency (battery input to actual propulsion) and be very close.

    You'll note the dramatic energy cost of going fast. So we go slowly, typically 3 knots or less. The ammeter is staring at me all the time. 

    Imagine a fuel-use gauge for a diesel. If you could deduct the overhead of running the thing at all, the display would tell how much can be saved or spent by varying your speed. 

    Our old Bukh used about 1 L/hr idling, and our long-term consumption averaged 1.5 L/hr. That glaring truth was one motivation for changing to electric.

    Oh, Cost

    Including everything listed above and fabrication, wires, a new shaft, bearing, seal and all... a little less than a new 20HP diesel installation, complete. I would have done most of the work in either case. 

    That's imprecise, but in line with what the Groves have committed to EasyGo's motor system. There are differences, because the solar panels and wind generator provide all our electrical energy, not just for the motor. Many people would want a diesel as well, to generate continuous electricity and so dissolve the biggest compromise - limited range. 

    Individual components can seem cheap, with smaller motors around US$400, but you'd have to price it out right down to the (many) battery cables and the terminals on the ends, to really cost it properly. We didn't. Once the decision was made, we simply did what we had to do until it worked. And when it smoked, we did some of it again.

    It's been interesting.

    Cheers,
    Kurt

    I dealt with Brian, Mark & Co. there for the motor and controller we have now.
    They're very savvy about electric vehicles, and are learning more about boats all the time. Decent folks, and busy.
    Last modified: 07 Dec 2012 18:50 | Anonymous member
  • 06 Dec 2012 20:15
    Reply # 1153914 on 1152733
    Deleted user
    Annie Hill wrote:
    Gary Pick wrote:I researched it some years back it would have cost me in the region of $AU6,000, which was out of the question for me at the time.
    I am dead curious though.

    Yo, but what would a diesel engine cost you?  Bob Groves told me he reckoned he'd spent at least CAN$15,000 on his new installation.
    The Beta Marine 14 HP engine and saildrive were just under $10,000 (CDN). All of the extras such as fuel tank, filters, fuel lines and on and on added up considerably bringing the total, with haul out to around $15,000. If one could make a comparable installation with an electric motor go for it. A friend in Lunenburg who has had considerable experience with electic motors is converting his electric motor to a diesel electric (think generator) motor so that he has range and reliability. He has been a number of years with purely electric and found it not reliable enough. I often think I should have stayed with the $100 yuloh only! I am keeping it aboard.
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