Sloop JR: Heaving to with a reefed sail plus towing a parachute drogue.

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  • 05 Sep 2021 20:32
    Reply # 10982371 on 10964763
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Using a 2-line bridle.

    Since towing the drogue from the lee, and then the weather quarter of my Ingeborg resulted in different pointing angles (see posts below), I guess the ultimate version would be to tow the drogue from a 2-line bridle as shown on the diagram below. By adjusting the relative length of the two lines, one should make the boat point closer to or farther from the wind.

    My guess is that this also has a more positive course stabilising effect than using just a single line. This could be very useful on fin-keeled boats, which lack much of the built-in yaw-damping that my boat has.

    Arne


    Last modified: 05 Sep 2021 20:34 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 04 Sep 2021 14:39
    Reply # 10980323 on 10976756
    Anonymous member (Administrator)
    David O. wrote:

    Arne

    It's interesting that your heaving to method works over various combinations of variables, depending on sail area, attachment point of the drogue rode and rudder angle.  Makes me wonder if one combination is more stable than others over a range of wind and sea states. 

    It's encouraging as you note, that by experimenting with those variables it may well work on other boats.           

    --David


    The clue appears to be to put enough brakes on to avoid luffing the sail, or even worse, tacking (just as when backing a jib). This doesn’t appear to be very difficult. Generally, it seems that my IF heaves to more steadily this way than my friend’s IF did with a BR and backed jib.
    It could well be that towing the drogue from the centreline of the stern would work just fine. That would let one ‘tack’ back and forth (‘cow-turning’) just by swinging the tiller over.
    Unfortunately for my Ingeborg; the stern area is a rather crowded place, so the bit at the lee quarter will have to do.

    Arne


  • 03 Sep 2021 16:01
    Reply # 10978766 on 10976775
    Anonymous wrote:
    Anonymous wrote:
      

     David:

          I just watched a Utube last night on how to make an "mid line eye splice"......... Perfect for assembling a series drogue of your type, though the eyes would be permanent.  While they would be permanent eyes, they would probably run over a winch more readily than a tied knot.   It is incredibly simple, and two such splices in opposing directions would allow you to have the slack line needed for your ply series drogue.  It's a neat very simple quick process using 3 strand nylon line:    Mid Line Eye Splice

                                                          H.W.


    Howard, thanks for this link.  The loops look perfect for 3 strand rope.  Alas, my rodes are 8-plait.  In my case, it's not a problem so far, as the figure 8 loops have been easy to untie.  We'll see what happens in harsher conditions as the rode comes under more tension. 


    David:

           Another easy to remove knot that would be suitable for drogue sections is the knot I use for the tree straps on my backpacking hammock.  It's called a marlin spike hitch.   A simple and elegant knot.    You can find dozens of utubes on how to tie them.   I put a carabiner through the loop which also goes through a loop on my hammock.  When the "biner" is removed, the knot collapses.  Looking around I found this Utube for anybody who is interested in this knot.  I've used it for years for many applications.

                                                        H.W.

    Marlin Spike Hitch

    1 file
  • 02 Sep 2021 18:21
    Reply # 10976775 on 10976572
    Anonymous wrote:
      

     David:

          I just watched a Utube last night on how to make an "mid line eye splice"......... Perfect for assembling a series drogue of your type, though the eyes would be permanent.  While they would be permanent eyes, they would probably run over a winch more readily than a tied knot.   It is incredibly simple, and two such splices in opposing directions would allow you to have the slack line needed for your ply series drogue.  It's a neat very simple quick process using 3 strand nylon line:    Mid Line Eye Splice

                                                          H.W.


    Howard, thanks for this link.  The loops look perfect for 3 strand rope.  Alas, my rodes are 8-plait.  In my case, it's not a problem so far, as the figure 8 loops have been easy to untie.  We'll see what happens in harsher conditions as the rode comes under more tension. 

  • 02 Sep 2021 18:13
    Reply # 10976756 on 10964763

    Arne

    It's interesting that your heaving to method works over various combinations of variables, depending on sail area, attachment point of the drogue rode and rudder angle.  Makes me wonder if one combination is more stable than others over a range of wind and sea states. 

    It's encouraging as you note, that by experimenting with those variables it may well work on other boats.           

    --David


  • 02 Sep 2021 16:27
    Reply # 10976572 on 10973099
    Anonymous wrote:

    As always, thanks so much for your support Howard.

    I was just thinking back on my post earlier in this thread in which I included a link to the experimental drogue for Minimus II.  In retrospect, I realize I should have been more specific about my intention there.  It had occurred to me that someone wanting to try Arne's new method of heaving to might not be comfortable with sewing.  If so, they might be interested in trying a small square of plywood with a 4 part bridle, like is pictured on that link.  

    More testing is warranted, but in light wind conditions so far, a single plywood drogue element tows just below the surface, similar to Arne's parachute drogue.    


     David:

          I just watched a Utube last night on how to make an "mid line eye splice"......... Perfect for assembling a series drogue of your type, though the eyes would be permanent.  While they would be permanent eyes, they would probably run over a winch more readily than a tied knot.   It is incredibly simple, and two such splices in opposing directions would allow you to have the slack line needed for your ply series drogue.  It's a neat very simple quick process using 3 strand nylon line:    Mid Line Eye Splice

                                                          H.W.


    1 file
  • 01 Sep 2021 08:30
    Reply # 10973763 on 10964763
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    David O.

    I have also considered using a piece of square (or round) plywood of similar area, possibly perforated. This should be easy to make without needing a sewing machine, looking much like a squared version of my bosun’s chair. I guess that the parachute version and the plywood version will work in a similar way. However, my parachute version has the advantage of taking up very little space in my cockpit locker. Maybe the plywood version could do double duty as a fish-gutting board?

    Anyway...
    yesterday I had another go on heaving to with the drogue. This time I tied it to the cleat on the weather quarter, to see if the boat would head up more. This turned out to be almost too good: At one point, with three panels set, Ingeborg threatened with coming about with the tiller fully ‘down’. With only two panels set, and with only half rudder angle, she once again ‘parked’ herself nicely. For some reason I didn’t get the idea to try the setup with only one panel set. Maybe next time.


    My conclusion is that towing the drogue from the weather quarter may suit boats which otherwise would be reluctant to head up sufficiently (like Tystie?). On Ingeborg, I will rather tow the drogue from the lee quarter.

    Cheers,
    Arne


    Last modified: 01 Sep 2021 11:24 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 01 Sep 2021 01:47
    Reply # 10973099 on 10964763

    As always, thanks so much for your support Howard.

    I was just thinking back on my post earlier in this thread in which I included a link to the experimental drogue for Minimus II.  In retrospect, I realize I should have been more specific about my intention there.  It had occurred to me that someone wanting to try Arne's new method of heaving to might not be comfortable with sewing.  If so, they might be interested in trying a small square of plywood with a 4 part bridle, like is pictured on that link.  

    More testing is warranted, but in light wind conditions so far, a single plywood drogue element tows just below the surface, similar to Arne's parachute drogue.    

  • 30 Aug 2021 17:17
    Reply # 10969288 on 10966523
    Anonymous wrote:

    I'm always interested in outside-the-box thinking, so thanks Arne for sharing your new method of heaving to.  In my experience, being able to safely and comfortably stop a boat is an undervalued and under-utilized skill.  I agree with Hans-Erik that heaving to is not necessarily about extreme weather.  I've often used it to "hold station" offshore, waiting for daylight to approach a harbor. 

    The most novel use is one I encountered more than 40 years ago. We were crossing from the southern tip of Baja, California to Puerto Vallarta, Mexico in our 20' sloop.  It's a 300 mile open ocean crossing and when we arrived in Puerto Vallarta, we met an elderly couple in a 25' trimaran.  They asked how long it took us and we reported 3 days.  They'd taken 5 days, which of course surprised us, given their much faster boat.  Then they explained their unorthodox sailing routine at sea. 

    They sail from dawn until a couple hours after dusk, then take sails down, put out a parachute sea anchor and an anchor light, have dinner and get 8 hours sleep before continuing the next day.  Over the years, they'd found it an effective way to keep fatigue at bay and to make passages more enjoyable.       


    Bravo for them!!    It has bothered me for some reason that people seem inclined to rush from port to port (tiki bar to tiki bar or marina bar) as if the sea is something to be feared and gotten behind as quickly as possible.  One of the things I appreciate deeply about your project (Minimus II) is that you have the opposite philosophy.  Experiencing the ocean close up and personal is important to you........The immersive voyage.  The ocean is not your "friend", nor is it the enemy. It is what it is and it is a place full of life, full of beauty and wonder.    Of course mid ocean a drogue is hardly needed over night unless just to provide a stable and comfortable ride while you cook and sleep.

  • 30 Aug 2021 09:15
    Reply # 10968445 on 10964763
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Hans-Erik,

    Thanks, you are too kind. That parachute drogue most certainly was not a result of serious research and development, and of course not my basic idea. I just drew up a shape, tongue in cheek, then made a prototype, and when it turned out to work when test-towing it, I just stuck with the design.
    Lately I added a little buoy to the last two I made, after losing one overboard. As a bonus, this kept the drogue near the surface and ensured that it would not rotate. The bridle lines are now stitched directly to the parachute, which is quicker, simpler and stronger. I will add an appendix to that write-up to show how.

    David Ty.
    I can see your point when comparing Tystie’s underwater profile to Ingeborg’s. Next time I go out to test the heaving-to method. I will try with the drogue tied first to the bit on the weather quarter, then on the weather genoa winch, and finally I will clip it to the weather (shroud) chainplate. My guess is that these will want to turn the boat more and more into the wind. Maybe it would then even work on a design looking more like Tystie’s? If you look at the photo of the towed drogue below, you will notice that it angles out some 20-30° from the CL. That should be the leeway angle.
    I’ll let you know what I find out.

    Cheers,
    Arne


    Last modified: 30 Aug 2021 17:00 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
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