Siren 17 Conversion

  • 16 Sep 2020 17:47
    Reply # 9240539 on 9235889
    Anonymous wrote:

    Hello!

    I've converted Cranberry to the junk schooner in 2015 for cruising on the lakes, canals and rivers - which are plenty around Ottawa. Works OK for our purposes. 

    Siren has a reputation of a tippy boat indeed, but with the low aspect junk rig and substantial "ballast" this junk schooner has a completely different personality.

    The offset mast does not make any perceptible difference in heeling on a wrong tack. We don't have any ballast as such, but we use 45 lbs trolling motor as auxiliary, with 2 or 4 group U1 batteries in the bilge (about 10 kilos each), as well as the the cruising gear - including a couple of decent anchors.

    The standard Siren is a  bit on the tippy side even with 4'6" board down. In the shallow waters we sail we often put the board  down just  a foot or so - and the boat sails to windward without much drama. We sail her quite flat and reef often - but with the small junk sails it's very easy to do. 

    The sail area is about 92 + 55 sq.ft., the mast is offset to starboard, mast partner is bolted to the cabin bulkhead.

    The compression post was removed - which made the tiny cabin of 17'  cruiser more "spacious" .

     Offset main mast allows for the offset boomkin - not interfering with the rudder, does not obstruct the companionway and somewhat increase the distance to the foremast - which is precious on 17' schooner. 

    The high balance (especially on the foresail) works OK for the tiny sails, and with the offset mast and boomkin helps to arrange two sails on a small boat. It's adjustable though. 

    For cruising I've replaced the 2 fixed windows of the Siren with 4 opening portlights, with mosquito netting. I did not modify the hatch.

    The dinghy is Klymit LWD inflatable which weights about a kilo, and putting it in the lazyjacks is a very practical way to go through the locks on Rideau Canal. The windward performance with such a "sail" is somewhat lacking though :-)

    I'll be glad to answer any questions but may be slow to reply as we plan to do some cruising this month.

     


     Thanks for posting this.... I was wondering how much difference the offset mast would make in real life.  With the mast centered, when a boat heels the top of the mast immediately goes downward, and geometry would suggest that  it should rise initially on the one tack.   Arne and I once discussed doing this on a trimaran to give access forward past the mast, but that's a far different case.  It's nice to know that it makes no perceptible difference... at least in normal sailing conditions. 

          Again, thanks for posting this... it's always best to either experience something yourself, or hear from someone who has than to simply speculate.  The proof they say is in the pudding  ;-)

                                                                 H.W.

    Last modified: 16 Sep 2020 17:56 | Anonymous member
  • 15 Sep 2020 03:03
    Reply # 9235889 on 9209928

    Hello!

    I've converted Cranberry to the junk schooner in 2015 for cruising on the lakes, canals and rivers - which are plenty around Ottawa. Works OK for our purposes. 

    Siren has a reputation of a tippy boat indeed, but with the low aspect junk rig and substantial "ballast" this junk schooner has a completely different personality.

    The offset mast does not make any perceptible difference in heeling on a wrong tack. We don't have any ballast as such, but we use 45 lbs trolling motor as auxiliary, with 2 or 4 group U1 batteries in the bilge (about 10 kilos each), as well as the the cruising gear - including a couple of decent anchors.

    The standard Siren is a  bit on the tippy side even with 4'6" board down. In the shallow waters we sail we often put the board  down just  a foot or so - and the boat sails to windward without much drama. We sail her quite flat and reef often - but with the small junk sails it's very easy to do. 

    The sail area is about 92 + 55 sq.ft., the mast is offset to starboard, mast partner is bolted to the cabin bulkhead.

    The compression post was removed - which made the tiny cabin of 17'  cruiser more "spacious" .

     Offset main mast allows for the offset boomkin - not interfering with the rudder, does not obstruct the companionway and somewhat increase the distance to the foremast - which is precious on 17' schooner. 

    The high balance (especially on the foresail) works OK for the tiny sails, and with the offset mast and boomkin helps to arrange two sails on a small boat. It's adjustable though. 

    For cruising I've replaced the 2 fixed windows of the Siren with 4 opening portlights, with mosquito netting. I did not modify the hatch.

    The dinghy is Klymit LWD inflatable which weights about a kilo, and putting it in the lazyjacks is a very practical way to go through the locks on Rideau Canal. The windward performance with such a "sail" is somewhat lacking though :-)

    I'll be glad to answer any questions but may be slow to reply as we plan to do some cruising this month.

     

  • 08 Sep 2020 03:21
    Reply # 9218623 on 9209928

    Covid is sobering and appears to have some time to run before the situation improves. I like a mizzen. i crewed on a 1954 ketch rigged wooden H28 on Lake Superior for a few years. The jib and jigger saved the day on a number of occasions when squalls or williwas would make things sporty.

    The Siren 17 is noted as being a tender boat so I am hesitant to try an offset mast. 50-50 really. If the wind comes from the short side then the offset would help with heeling  geometry. If it came from the long side the it might make the heeling worse???.

    The schooner mainmast could be on centre a bit further aft so as to allow entry into the cabin but still leave room for good tiller use. The foremast can come aft a foot and have a tabernacle tied to the hull. The bow pulpit wouldn't be needed for bracing as in the example shown.

    William Longyard modified a Siren with a tabernacle tied to the centreboard trunk and through the deck. It was located a bit forward of the compression post. He used a shortened mast to ease in raising the mast. The mainsail was recut and a sliding gunter yard was used to keep the pointy sail system going.

    Similarly a tabernacle could be used for an unstayed mast and a cambered junk sail. Longyard's Lucky Town 7 came after the Siren IIRC.

    Albert


    1 file
  • 07 Sep 2020 16:46
    Reply # 9217629 on 9217451
    Anonymous wrote:

    The hatchway is the rounded top of the cabin top. It is a non-opening sloped arch. The Siren has a mast compression post under the mast tabernacle 15 cm forward of the hatchway. The interior layout incorporates having the post.

    The yawl suggestion is excellent. There are several locations to tie a mast base to the hull. The schooner/yawl appears to be a plan to have a reasonable sail area while minimizing the heeling moment. Sirens can and do capsize, particularly if the centreboard is not locked.

    I see from your profile icon that you have a similar lenght boat. What type of rig are you using?

    Thanks

    Albert


    Albert:

        Mine is in the proverbial "stalled project" stage due the the economic crunch of Covid.  Paying projects have temporarily displaced it in the shop in the struggle to generate enough income to make ends meet.  I am fortunate in my business that my small customer base is only minimally impacted so far by the plague, but even so I've lost two longtime friends so far including one customer.   De-nial seems to be the longest river in America, and our native arrogance combined with an utter lack of any sort of real leadership virtually guarantee that it will get far worse before it gets better...

         In a few weeks I plan to move the project back into the shop and pick up construction where I left off... I'll have time and space, but limited resources, so I'll probably be forced back into stock trading for income... I much prefer working with my hands and associated skills... but it pays far better if I can manage the stress which for me has always been the problem for me.  

           I'm building it mainly as a test bed to play with various small junk rigs from low cost materials.   A flat panel rig will probably be the initial one using an ordinary poly tarp sail.   Having no actual experience with yawl rigs, I'll probably put up a small mizzen, as the potential  use of the jigger both for some drive and for balance & possibly self steering is something I'm eager to explore.      Paul's Arthropod rig as I call it caught my eye the first time I saw it, and I'd like to play with a variant of that , all with an eye to eventually putting together a larger boat suitable for (mostly) solo voyaging.

       

  • 07 Sep 2020 14:45
    Reply # 9217451 on 9209928

    The hatchway is the rounded top of the cabin top. It is a non-opening sloped arch. The Siren has a mast compression post under the mast tabernacle 15 cm forward of the hatchway. The interior layout incorporates having the post.

    The yawl suggestion is excellent. There are several locations to tie a mast base to the hull. The schooner/yawl appears to be a plan to have a reasonable sail area while minimizing the heeling moment. Sirens can and do capsize, particularly if the centreboard is not locked.

    I see from your profile icon that you have a similar lenght boat. What type of rig are you using?

    Thanks

    Albert

    1 file
  • 06 Sep 2020 20:00
    Reply # 9215750 on 9214350
    Anonymous wrote:

    Thanks. I put in a PM on the website and am waiting for a reply. The main mast could come forward to the end of the fixed hatchway. That would allow a smaller sail area ahead of the mast and let the mast move to centreline. The fore sail could be shortened a bit to give sheet clearance for it's sheets.

    I will measure it up from the profile pic.

    Albert

    I'm confused... what do you mean by the forward end of the fixed hatchway?


    The mast offset to starboard looks like a rather ingenious solution that doesn't significantly compromise what little interior space they have.... something one doesn't often see.........  The offset mast is the sort of thing that seems to bother most people... 


    How about flipping things around... Put the mast completely forward of the cabin, and make it a yawl.... 

    Last modified: 06 Sep 2020 20:03 | Anonymous member
  • 05 Sep 2020 21:14
    Reply # 9214350 on 9209928

    Thanks. I put in a PM on the website and am waiting for a reply. The main mast could come forward to the end of the fixed hatchway. That would allow a smaller sail area ahead of the mast and let the mast move to centreline. The fore sail could be shortened a bit to give sheet clearance for it's sheets.

    I will measure it up from the profile pic.

    Albert

    1 file
  • 03 Sep 2020 23:36
    Reply # 9210587 on 9209928

    Here's a link you can click on.

    The photos are interesting. Very high balance sails (30 + %) offset mainmast and sheeting boomkin, new hatch/windows fitted - and a novel way of stowing a dinghy!

    Last modified: 03 Sep 2020 23:39 | Anonymous member
  • 03 Sep 2020 17:33
    Message # 9209928

    I found this

    http://www.workingsail.com/messabout/boats/siren_schooner/index.html

    I am interested as  just happen to have a Siren 17. Has anyone else seen this boat or have any more info?

    Thanks

    Albert

    2 files
       " ...there is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing as simply messing about in junk-rigged boats" 
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