best read for junk v bermuda for criusing live abord

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  • 19 Jan 2020 08:27
    Reply # 8617853 on 8574783

    You are welcome to drop in for a chat, Andrew. 
    cool man, no worries. I suspect I will be killing time a bit as my main mission is to kick my truck project along and collect guitars. ill be staying a bit in stokers siding, and prob visit friends in mullem etc , I havent had a break yet as have been working so I suspect ill take 2 weeks off. so happy to drink tea and chat. equally happy to lend a hand to stave of boredom.
  • 19 Jan 2020 06:01
    Reply # 8616992 on 8547409

     Good Afternoon Graham and Andrew.

    Maybe I might be able to jump in and help out here a little bit.

    I have a JR boat in Mooloolaba right now, 

    A boat which I hope to bring down to sydney soon...

    BUT which I’m yet to learn how to sail...

    (I have so very many questions and so much to learn)

    And I will be up there next week as well.

    Perhaps if I might be so bold as to suggest that 

    if your willing to provide the knowledge Graham 

    I could provide the boat and all 3 of us could make a day of it?


    only if everyone is comfortable with that idea of course... 

    And if a sail is not on the cards for what ever reason,

    I would love ask you a few questions if that would be possible Graham,

    Captain Pete Morgan who has helped me a couple of times with the boat said

    you are the top Junk rig man in the State! 


    Anyway thanks for your time guys and let me know what you think.


    Nic V

  • 14 Jan 2020 23:45
    Reply # 8574783 on 8573488
    Anonymous wrote:
    Anonymous wrote:I hope to have it sailing again in a few months and would be happy to take you for sail once the work is complete.  I do not have room aboard for guests to stay so you would have to provide your own accommodation ashore.


    thanks Graham, Ill be up that way as I am fixing up my series 3 landrover, which is being worked on north of Brisbane. happy to drop by and lend a hand, ill be up there in a week or so, I am a non licensed builder by trade.


    You are welcome to drop in for a chat, Andrew.  My work schedule is very relaxed.  I worked very hard for three days last week replacing my large windows with 6" bronze deadlights, but am not really doing anything this week apart from working on a JRA article.  It is very hot for one thing, and my health is less than perfect so I do not push myself.  Also waiting for my new sail which is being generously built for me by Paul Thompson in NZ, and a hard bimini for the cockpit being built by another friend.  It will take some time to get the sail rigged as I need to rethink all the running rigging.  But I am in absolutely no rush.  I suspect I am sort of retired from serious sailing and cruising now.  This boat may be a half-way house for me, a (tiny) home afloat more than anything.  But I have no agenda or plans.  Just letting it all take care of itself and getting plenty of afternoon snoozes.  You should try and look at that Badger you are interested in while you are up this way.  It was very well-built initially, but I think it has been neglected a bit by the current owner.  There has been some rot in the deck and you'd have to carefully look at every inch of it, especially anywhere where there are fastenings through the plywood.
  • 14 Jan 2020 20:50
    Reply # 8573488 on 8564818
    Anonymous wrote:I hope to have it sailing again in a few months and would be happy to take you for sail once the work is complete.  I do not have room aboard for guests to stay so you would have to provide your own accommodation ashore.


    thanks Graham, Ill be up that way as I am fixing up my series 3 landrover, which is being worked on north of Brisbane. happy to drop by and lend a hand, ill be up there in a week or so, I am a non licensed builder by trade.

  • 14 Jan 2020 00:44
    Reply # 8564818 on 8547409

    Hi Andrew,

    I'm currently in Mooloolaba though my boat is out of commission at the moment, undergoing a refit.  I hope to have it sailing again in a few months and would be happy to take you for sail once the work is complete.  I do not have room aboard for guests to stay so you would have to provide your own accommodation ashore.  I'm not sure what my plans are for 2020 once I get the boat going.  I suspect I will not go north to the tropics this winter, but being a vagabond you never know!

    Having converted my previous boat, Arion, to junk rig from bermudian, I seem to have become addicted to having just one halyard and one sheet to deal with, and a low-tech, low-stress rig.  When I sold Arion, I looked at a number of bermudian-rigged boats, but the thought of all those highly-tensioned stays and connectors, not to mention the deckwork involved in handling the rig, put me off.  If I do buy one in the future I will have to convert it.  I have been corrupted for life.  It is junk rig or nothing for me.

  • 13 Jan 2020 20:31
    Reply # 8563009 on 8547409

    Hi Andrew,

    try contacting Gary Pick in Tweed Heads or Graham Cox in Maloolaba. They both have junk rigged boats and I am sure would be only too willing to provide a demonstration sail. Their contact details can be found on the members list.

    All the best, David.

  • 13 Jan 2020 11:45
    Reply # 8559498 on 8547409

    Thanks very much for your good words. you have helped crystallize things.

    the boat will be used for long term cruising. so it still sounds like a good idea.

    after i started having my doubts. i started looking at triangle boats for the first time proper. there are so many out there.

    hence my need to hear your experience, so thanks very much i really appreciate it.

    Andrew

    i would love to sail a junk in NSW or brisbane are if anyone knows. apparently not!



  • 12 Jan 2020 15:57
    Reply # 8552648 on 8547409

    Bonjour


    As I'm rather experienced and own two boats very different my opinion may be of interest.


    I'm 70 years old now and I am not as fit as I used to be... I sail and raced since I was 13 years old on all sizes of boats. I own, as a teenager, an old gaffer (a 18 feet yawl). I participated to the first Jester Challenge (single handed transatlantic non-race from Plymouth to Newport RI) on a very racing boat (a 30' Figaro Beneteau). I choose the northern route...



    The Junk is "Mingming" the well known minimalist cruiser (Shallow draft, small rudder, no engine, flat sail (modified in "lambda sheeting" and flexible battens to give some - rather bad- camber). A very minimalist cruising boat but unsinkable and watertight.

    The pointy is a X95 "Frk.Xand" from X Yachts in Denmark. Outside she is a Half-toner with a spagetty mast, spreaders, huge mainsail, huge furling genoa, 2 smaller gibs, spinnaker, 1.90m draft, 3000Kg weigt,1500kg of keel,  huge rudder, inboard engine. Inside she is a very cosy cruising boat. (Yes, the "Mouton à 5 pattes" exists !).


    I love them both but I sail them differently.


    I sail Frk.Xand mainly in family cruising, almost single handed, (my wife is definitly not a a deck-hand and may be seasick and my grandchild are too small to help efficiently). I use all the sail and as I hate engines I tack quite easily in narrow spaces as "la rivière de Morlaix" or "Scilly islands" or "Chenal de terres de Batz" (Probably these are Chinese (normal for a junky) for an  Australian skipper , I'm afraid!). It is hard work but good for health. I sail her single handed from Copenhagen(Denmark) to Rexcel (South Netheland) single hande, then two handed to north Britanny(France) when I bought her.


    I use Mingming in a very different way to experiment riggings (Lambda sheeting and, under way, flexible wing-sail with lambda sheeting) and to promote Junkrig in France. I participated for exemple to the 2019 "semaine du Golf du Morbihan" where I was the smallest  in a « flotille » of 70 pointies, some of them performant with racing gear. The Golf du Morbihan is a closed maritime area linked to the sea by a narrow gap and housing hundreds of island. The tides are huge and the winds are shifting and funneling; a nice place to sail. There were about 1500 boats running about the area. I almost always arrived last but was far from being ridiculous. The pointies were impressed by the easiness and performance of the junkrig, eathen windward with my far from performant sail. I demonstrated the junkrig by taking aboard some skippers during the lunch moorings (short spaces between the boats moored on buoys and current) they where impressed by the maniability (tacking and even more jibbing) and reefing easyness.


    To conclude, today I'm convinced of a few things:


    - You may, with some skill and experience, "play" as much with a pointy as with a Junk.

    - When you’ve miss something, overcanevased, miss tack, engine issue, torn sail … you are more confortable on a junk because it is easier and faster to react to the situation.

    - On a racing pointy the twinning of the sails, mast, rigging... is very demanding and under my experience much more than on a junk. On the other way it is more possible to  adapt the shape of the sails to the conditions. If you enjoy it it may a great fun, at least for me, I spend my time strimming.

    -On a junk you don't realy need to adapt the power of the sail to the conditions. You just add or supress some sail area if you sail is big enough, and there is no reason not to be so. For triming devils it might be frustrating.

    - Today, I enjoy the X95 as much as I can because I know that the time will come (too soon) when I will not physically be able to handle her (winch efforts, deck work..) anymore. The choice will be junk or motor boat.

    -On pure sailing performance a racing pointy is a great fun; but most of the said "sailing cruising boats" for sale are more on the motor sailor or barge range under my criteria.They are not better than the ordinarry junk windward; they motorsail, at best, or motor windward.

    -The windward performance of a cruising junk is not anymore a problem with modern (cambered, slotted, wing) sails. Rare experiences (X99 in Norway) show that racing boats under Junkrig are performant. Most of the time the cruising junk will be as performant of the equivalent pointy. The skipper makes the difference with the easiness in handling of the junk on one hand and his ability to support the noise of the engine on the other.

    -I've broken three masts in my life and I don't think that the weekness of the pointy rigging is a real argument. A well maintained bermudian rigging has no reason to break more or less than a standing mast.

    I think that the main issue is what do you want to do with the boat: Performant cruising, relax cruising, visiting, living aboard for long periods, ocean sailing, family sailing, in area with big tides...

    For a live aboard cruising boat who should probably be overcharged (under the racing boat criteria at least) and should stay long periods at mooring; I would, for myself and at my age, choose a large, confortable, shallow junk to be able to sail relax single handed and enter any river or lagonn…. perhaps a flat bottom or a scow or a bildge keel to dry in creeks.

    Eric
    Last modified: 12 Jan 2020 16:34 | Anonymous member
  • 12 Jan 2020 13:42
    Reply # 8551863 on 8551041
    Arne wrote:What never fails, is to tack up a narrow sound (yes, to windward), only a few boatlengths wide.

    Yes, that's right. When I have demonstrated how I can sail to windward into a narrow place that I don't know and never visited before, under full control, ready to make any adjustments to the rig at a moment's notice, the bermudan sailors have said "I wouldn't dare to do that under my rig". There's a big difference between racing to windward in open water and steady conditions, and cruising to windward in confined conditions, where wind-shadow and gusts might be a problem, where there's a lack of manpower to adjust the sails quickly, and similar real-life situations. If the need is for a rig that's good for long term cruising and living aboard - no contest, the junk rig wins on all counts.
  • 12 Jan 2020 11:13
    Reply # 8551041 on 8547409
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Andrew,

    the matter of windward performance seems to pop up again and again. David Thatcher’s feedback indicates that his Underwood-designed Footprints didn’t shine to windward, not even with the cambered panel JR. Question is then, would Footprints fly to windward under a Bermuian rig? I doubt it, since its keel and rudder is fairly shallow.
    My experience is that the performance-to-windward gap between Bermudian and junk-rigged boats has been almost closed. A boat with a good JR will be less than 5% slower to windward than a sister-boat with a BR.
    A few years back, we had a little match-race between my junk-rigged Marieholm IF, Ingeborg, and an original Nordic Folkboat, La Barca. Overall, the Marieholm came out faster, but the FB was a bit faster to windward. After that, I eased the tension in the sail along the battens so the camber/chord ratio increased from 7 to 8%. Recently another IF arrived in my harbour, so next summer we will have a chance to compare two identical hulls, one with the original BR and mine with the JR.
    I hope to write a summary of that test.

    Arne

    PS:
    David Tyler is so right that you should find a chance to sail under a JR  -  but I must warn you: Everyone who have sailed in my boats have ended up convinced, converted and sold after just an hour! What never fails, is to tack up a narrow sound (yes, to windward), only a few boatlengths wide.


    Last modified: 12 Jan 2020 11:31 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
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