best read for junk v bermuda for criusing live abord

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  • 05 Feb 2020 20:38
    Reply # 8729028 on 8710930
    Andrew wrote:

    The main thing I keep reading about is the old chestnut of not pointing to wind as much. So really I wanted a different answer. 

    I much like the idea of safety in a storm. I was sailing a 44' bermudan in 35knots and it was healing right over with just a jib up, and it was scary!

    The idea of dropping the main on a junk; does it compare to an in-mast furling?
    or apples and pineapples?

    Some new yachts can get to 35° (AMEL) but they attribute that to the new hull design of a wide stern fairly flat bottom and twin rudders plus rigging and the whole shebang. which I think is a 15° improvement from 20 years ago.


    I imagine that after the 20k price tag I may need another 20 before I set sail, or before I set junk.

    Put it this way, we cruised Badger, a boat with a very simple hull form, flat sails and a Seagull outboard engine, around the Falkland Islands for over a year.  The Falkland Is are in the so-called Furious Fifties and it certainly can blow there.  The wind, of course, is generally from the W.  However, we went from the eastern end of the archipelago to the western end at least three times and thorougly explored most of the area in between.  I might add that apparently, no-one else had done anything similar since.  Badger was undoubtedly slower than a bermudan-rigged boat and didn't point as high, but we got where we wanted to go time after time.  And she would make her way to windward in gale force winds.

    Boats with bermudan rig can point very high, but in truth, out in the open ocean, with sails that have several years and thousands of miles of use, let alone with roller furling, this performance advantage soon goes away.  Most people, regardless of how the boat sails, avoid going to windward if they can.

    I don't think there is a 'right' boat or an 'ideal' boat: it so much depends on you, what you want to do, what you are prepared to put up with and your likes and dislikes about life in general.    Equally it's hard to say how much you will need to spend on this boat, because one person's necessities are another person's luxuries.  And how well is the boat equipped?  Boats that have been unused for several years often have problems with the more complex gear like engines and fridges.  The electronics may well have issues.  You might need to buy more anchor gear; skin fittings might need replacing.  It's hard to tell until you actually get on to the boat and have the chance to examine it properly.  You have to have decent sails, good anchor tackle, waterproof hatches, a cooker and some local charts.  But you could do an awful lot of sailing with not much more!

  • 03 Feb 2020 20:50
    Reply # 8715203 on 8714804
    Anonymous wrote:
    Andrew wrote:

    Please be brutally honest with opinions on this hull. It's 37'.

    To be brutally honest, I can't understand what's stopping you!


    Perhaps because the best boat, ever, is the one you are about to buy ! It's a magic moment !

    Eric

  • 03 Feb 2020 19:01
    Reply # 8714804 on 8710930
    Andrew wrote:

    The idea of dropping the main on a junk; does it compare to an in-mast furling?
    or apples and pineapples?

    I was involved with some of the design of the Selden in-mast furling. What I can say is this: however good we made the mast, we were only in control of half of the issue, the other half being in the control of the sailmaker. Believe me, when you've had a sail jammed halfway out of the slot, with the upper leech doubled back over itself, and you can't get it to go in or come fully out so that you can lower it, that will put you off in-mast furling for life. How does that compare with the fail-safe JR that self furls when you let go the halyard? I'll let you work it out.


    I have been trying to figure out an ideal hull for a junk. (still tempted by the aluminum ketch in langkawi bay malasia.

    But is there an ideal hull. I have heard some say a shallow draft is best?
    how does that affect the upwind performance.

    As I've said before, this is looking at it the wrong way around. The ideal hull for a junk is secondary. First you find a boat that is as near to ideal as you can, for the use that you plan to make of it, then you think about what rig is a good fit with both boat and yourself. In this case, it seems quite straightforward to put a schooner JR rig on.

    This boat that you're looking at is a good fit to your plans, as far as I understand them. Yes, you'll have to spend some money, to get it closer to optimum, but the basics are there. It will sail well enough, for cruising purposes, even if you wouldn't want to race it to windward.

    PS does anyone use carbon fiber tube as battens or does bamboo do just as well?

    I have carbon fibre battens, to get the lightest rig I can, but I have to pay a lot more  money than for GRP or aluminium. My current interest is in making the best, most efficient rig that I can devise, almost regardless of cost, on a small light boat. That's really the only justification. Either GRP or aluminium would be more appropriate for this larger, heavier boat. Bamboo can be used, if you have expertise in choosing and using it, and have a source of supply; not so much otherwise.

    Please be brutally honest with opinions on this hull. It's 37'.

    To be brutally honest, I can't understand what's stopping you!

    Masts are carbon and rotate.. one needs attention. Does a rotating mast have any use on a junk?

    Junk rig doesn't need the masts to rotate, but I don't think it would be harmful if they do. You can't put a tricolour light on them, or any other directional item, but that's all.


  • 03 Feb 2020 18:18
    Reply # 8714730 on 8547409

    bonjour

    I've perhaps found a book that may be of interest : it is in the JAR eLibrary in the "archive" directory. The title is :"Esier rig for safer cruising"

    It is definitly out dated but there is not many thing new under the cruising sun.

    The only issue is that the ressents cambered Junk sails are not documented but they are in other places of the website.

    Eric

    Last modified: 03 Feb 2020 18:18 | Anonymous member
  • 03 Feb 2020 17:58
    Reply # 8714685 on 8547409

    One small point with regards to professional pointy rig advice VS amateur junk advice.

    After a few years of lurking here, and looking at the JRA magazine archives, it appears that the "amateur" advice is a fully renewable, inexhaustible resource.

    In contrast to the "pro" advice for pointy rigs, the junkie advice, besides being free, will also seek to save you time and money in materials, because no one will be selling you anything.

    I know which I would pick.

  • 03 Feb 2020 14:00
    Reply # 8712439 on 8547409
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    I can see the point in not bothering too much with pointing that closely to the wind when cruising offshore.

    However, for an offshore cruiser I suggest you design the rig a bit lower than if it were optimised for coastal or inshore cruising, and then increase the camber instead of cutting it flat. A well-cambered JR mainsail produces a lot of drive in the broad-to-close reach sector (like any baggy sail). In comparison, a flat sail would be a lame duck.

    Arne


    Last modified: 03 Feb 2020 14:28 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 03 Feb 2020 10:53
    Reply # 8712208 on 8711582
    Anonymous wrote:

    How close you can point to windward is not the criteria to be looking at for the cruising rig. Very often the waves will prevent you from pointing and you will be forced to bear off a bit in order to not be stopped in your tracks by the waves. I remember sailing in the Bristol Channel in the 1970's when two crack half tonners and an 1876, 26 foot gaff cutter set off from Ilfacomb bound for Barry harbor. The half tonners tried pointing up at their best angle while the old gaffer sailed fast on a close reach and arrived in Barry half an hour before the half tonners. He was sailing single handed and arrived dry and relaxed. The half tonners had a crew of six on each boat and arrived soaked to the skin and worn out.

    Thats the best windward story i have heard !

    thanks for sharing


  • 02 Feb 2020 21:19
    Reply # 8711582 on 8547409

    How close you can point to windward is not the criteria to be looking at for the cruising rig. Very often the waves will prevent you from pointing and you will be forced to bear off a bit in order to not be stopped in your tracks by the waves. I remember sailing in the Bristol Channel in the 1970's when two crack half tonners and an 1876, 26 foot gaff cutter set off from Ilfacomb bound for Barry harbor. The half tonners tried pointing up at their best angle while the old gaffer sailed fast on a close reach and arrived in Barry half an hour before the half tonners. He was sailing single handed and arrived dry and relaxed. The half tonners had a crew of six on each boat and arrived soaked to the skin and worn out.

    The hull of the boat you are looking at in Malaysia looks as if it would need a powerful rig to drive it to windward. I would not expect it to point closer than 45 degrees under any rig and it will probably perform best cracked off to 50 degrees and sailed fast. The extra speed will often make up for the lack of pointing ability and will be a lot more comfortable than trying to point the last degree closer to the wind.

    My advice is to go with a cambered junk rig, expect to sail no closer than 45 degrees to the wind and sail faster and more comfortably than most pointy rigged cruising boats. The added advantage of the junk rig is that you can fix most things on it yourself with a bit of rope and a few square feet of sailcloth almost anywhere in the world. You can also sail it better with a smaller crew and will often be sailing when the pointy rigged boats have given up and are burning diesel fuel and wearing out their engines.

    Last modified: 03 Feb 2020 08:03 | Anonymous member
  • 02 Feb 2020 15:10
    Reply # 8711210 on 8710930
    Anonymous wrote:

    So far, a good read, maybe this will be the book I am looking for?

    The main thing I keep reading about is the old chestnut of not pointing to wind as much. So really I wanted a different answer.

    I much like the idea of safety in a storm. I was sailing a 44' bermudan in 35knots and it was healing right over with just a jib up, and it was scary!

    The idea of dropping the main on a junk; does it compare to an in-mast furling?
    or apples and pineapples?

    Some new yachts can get to 35° (AMEL) but they attribute that to the new hull design of a wide stern fairly flat bottom and twin rudders plus rigging and the whole shebang. which I think is a 15° improvement from 20 years ago.

    anyway, I digress.
    I have been trying to figure out an ideal hull for a junk. (still tempted by the aluminum ketch in langkawi bay malasia.

    but is there an ideal hull. I have heard some say a shallow draft is best?
    how does that affect the upwind performance.

    I like the comment about tacking up a canal or narrow waterway that a pointy would not attempt but a junk will do automatically.

    so it seems a small trade off. The only other down side that I see, is the obvious fact that there is not many junks on the market. but there are un-masted hulls. a fiberglass triangle boat has like 100/1 ratio. v steel etc, and 10,000/1 junk.

    I'ts hard to have everything you want in a boat, such as romantic look or character , or lines, safety, strength , cold climate and hot, ie cabin with steering v open boat with the stars as the roof. I would hate to sail the arctic and be stuck at night in the rain and cold with no protection. but many yachts are built for the Bahamas.

    Ideally I would have a large center cockpit to enjoy the view in all weather. a shack on the water!

    Anyway, if I buy the aluminum ketch I can always ad a pilot house down the track. its not my favorite design, I dont like the big ship bow, as it may be hard to see over. but it has swing keel, headroom, sabb engine, 6'7" headroom, aluminium, and carbon masts. so all boats are a compromise. and with this one, I would not care about chopping it up and modifying as it has no sentimental value. It is just a lump of metal, which I think is better than buying a classic that would be a crime to cut up with a torch.

    What do you (anyone) think this boat (in pics) will sail like under a junk rig?
    sorry to hijack my own thread, but its more of a segue, as I was about to buy it, but got spooked and took a hiatus to gain perspective. still now, I see it as a good buy. considering the nearest aluminum is like $120k, albeit in ship shape.

    I imagine that after the 20k price tag I may need another 20 before I set sail, or before I set junk. 

    ps does anyone use carbon fiber tube as batons or does bamboo do just as good?

    thanks in advance.

    please be brutally honest with opinions on this hull. its 37'. masts are carbon and rotate.. one needs attention. does a rotating mast have any use on a junk? maybe it rotates to change angle of resistance?


    edit, I just watched this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPAprEj3iiY

    Terapin easily the most holistic and down to earth videos on youtube.

    she sails at 45° which I think is pretty good. she has some great design features.



    Bonjour

    The standard bermudian cruising boat with huge hull, small sails, small draft, old sails... is not going any better, than the equivalent junkrig. The cambered junksail can proceed sufficienty windward not to be dangerous.


    The danger in a heavy storm is never the wind but the waves. So the danger is more related to the hull the sterring capability, the resistance to water ingress and the means available to limit the boat speed down the waves. The difference betwenn the Bermudian and the Junk is more at crew level. It's much easier to handle, for a given size, a junk sail than a bermudian rigging, in hard wind.

    Dropping a sail on a junk is as easy and effort less than to furl a bermudian sail with an in-mast furling BUT first the in-mast furling may jam ...(especially if you furl-it on a hurry in a squall) and a main sail adapted to a in-mast furling is as flat as a flat junk sail (it has no power headwind.

    "New boats flat and wide are buid to live in harbours, they are "flotting caravans" there performance headwind are very bad, but they have huge diesel engines. A long time ago they were called fifty/fifty (half motor boat half sailing boat). They are very bad sailing boats. They only set sails on a nice quater wind breeze (and most of the time stay at harbour).

    To be performant headwind you must have a deep fin keel. The hull must efficiently (with as little as possible drag) resist to the drifting force. So shallow draft is nice for windward performance BUT with a drifting keel or a deap sanderboard. Some modern bilge keel (with two fin keels and assymetrical profiles) are efficient windward, with a "limited" draft (1.6m for a 9 meter's boat)

    Eric

    Last modified: 02 Feb 2020 15:15 | Anonymous member
  • 02 Feb 2020 10:16
    Reply # 8710930 on 8547409

    So far, a good read, maybe this will be the book I am looking for?

    The main thing I keep reading about is the old chestnut of not pointing to wind as much. So really I wanted a different answer. 

    I much like the idea of safety in a storm. I was sailing a 44' bermudan in 35knots and it was healing right over with just a jib up, and it was scary!

    The idea of dropping the main on a junk; does it compare to an in-mast furling?
    or apples and pineapples?

    Some new yachts can get to 35° (AMEL) but they attribute that to the new hull design of a wide stern fairly flat bottom and twin rudders plus rigging and the whole shebang. which I think is a 15° improvement from 20 years ago.

    anyway, I digress.
    I have been trying to figure out an ideal hull for a junk. (still tempted by the aluminum ketch in langkawi bay malasia.

    but is there an ideal hull. I have heard some say a shallow draft is best?
    how does that affect the upwind performance.

    I like the comment about tacking up a canal or narrow waterway that a pointy would not attempt but a junk will do automatically.

    so it seems a small trade off. The only other down side that I see, is the obvious fact that there is not many junks on the market. but there are un-masted hulls. a fiberglass triangle boat has like 100/1 ratio. v steel etc, and 10,000/1 junk.

    I'ts hard to have everything you want in a boat, such as romantic look or character , or lines, safety, strength , cold climate and hot, ie cabin with steering v open boat with the stars as the roof. I would hate to sail the arctic and be stuck at night in the rain and cold with no protection. but many yachts are built for the Bahamas.

    Ideally I would have a large center cockpit to enjoy the view in all weather. a shack on the water!

    Anyway, if I buy the aluminum ketch I can always ad a pilot house down the track. its not my favorite design, I dont like the big ship bow, as it may be hard to see over. but it has swing keel, headroom, sabb engine, 6'7" headroom, aluminium, and carbon masts. so all boats are a compromise. and with this one, I would not care about chopping it up and modifying as it has no sentimental value. It is just a lump of metal, which I think is better than buying a classic that would be a crime to cut up with a torch.

    What do you (anyone) think this boat (in pics) will sail like under a junk rig?
    sorry to hijack my own thread, but its more of a segue, as I was about to buy it, but got spooked and took a hiatus to gain perspective. still now, I see it as a good buy. considering the nearest aluminum is like $120k, albeit in ship shape.

    I imagine that after the 20k price tag I may need another 20 before I set sail, or before I set junk. 

    ps does anyone use carbon fiber tube as batons or does bamboo do just as good?

    thanks in advance.

    please be brutally honest with opinions on this hull. its 37'. masts are carbon and rotate.. one needs attention. does a rotating mast have any use on a junk? maybe it rotates to change angle of resistance?


    edit, I just watched this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPAprEj3iiY

    Terapin easily the most holistic and down to earth videos on youtube.

    she sails at 45° which I think is pretty good. she has some great design features.



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    Last modified: 02 Feb 2020 12:24 | Anonymous member
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