Split Junk, Cambered panel or hinged batten sail. Which to choose?

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  • 11 Nov 2011 19:58
    Reply # 747855 on 747813
    Deleted user
    Rodney Whitworth wrote:
    David Tyler wrote:Hello Rodney,
    Let's see what we can do to aid you in your decision making.

    It has been quite commonly found that a flat sailed junk rig is slow in stays. This is simply because there is so little drive when pointing high that the boat cannot be "powered" through the tack. This applies to Hasler sails, mostly. Where the sail is flat, but the planform is fanned, there is actually a useful amount of camber developed when the sail is allowed to twist a little. This is the "fiendishly cunning chinese" way of adding camber that Blondie Hasler did not take fully into account, choosing instead the more easily designed geometry of the parallelogram panels combined with a couple of triangular top panels.

    As to the modern sail types:
    1. The split junk is showing promise as a racing and coastal cruising rig. It is fast, there's no doubt of it - if it is made with exactly  the right geometry of jib/slot/mainsail. I'm not sure that Slieve, the originator of the variant, thinks he has the final answer to the shaping of the jibs. From the open sea sailing perspective, I would not like to use it until something has been found to prevent the jibs from flogging when empty of wind, a very un-junk-like characteristic. The jibs hang down and obscure the view forward when reefed or furled. The type is not appropriate for a two masted rig, in any case, so I think you can discount it as an option for re-rigging a Freedom. 

    2. Hinged battens have been used successfully by some and unsuccessfully by others. They depend on having very soundly engineered hinges - which are not available commercially, and so you would have to have an engineering background to take on the job of designing and making your own. The hinge has to be further aft than is desirable for getting the camber in the right place for maximum drive. Otherwise, it tends to hinge the wrong way, or to fail to articulate at all (a question of how much balance area there is forward of the mast compared to the position of the hinge aft of the mast). Hinges have the advantage of being used with a flat sail - which is easier and quicker to make.

    3. Yesterday, I sailed on Annie Hill's Fantail for the first time, with the sail I designed for her to make. It is fanned, and has 6% camber in the lower panels. It is now set up with the standard junk rig lines of halyard, yard parrel, luff parrel and 5 -part sheet. Annie tells me that I had a smile on my face whilst I was sailing. Fantail was fast and lively to windward, yet she retained the docility and ease of handling of the flat sail. Due, I think, to the convex curve I added to the luff, we were able to dispense with the Hong Kong parrels that are usually needed with a cambered panel sail, resulting in a much better setting sail on port tack. I'm convinced that this type of sail - cambered panels, fanned planform, convex luff, straight-ish leech and stiff battens - is the best "modern" choice for a single masted boat. 

    However, and unfortunately, I cannot see a way to get all of these features, so good on a single sailed boat, into the rig on a two-masted boat. A fanned sail necessarily has to have a strong aft stagger to the battens as they are reefed and furled, and it is difficult to find room for the sails and the sheeting system, particularly on a short-ended boat such as the Freedoms. For my best shot so far at schooner/ketch design, look at the photos of the suit of tan-coloured sails I made for Badger before I left England. They have a moderate amount of camber in the lower, parallelogram panels, which are as deep vertically as is consistent with sheeting and handling considerations; the yards are set at as steep an angle as practicable, with two unsheeted battens in the fanned head of the sails, so as to keep each panel small for "storm sail" use.


    Hello David,

    What a succinct summary of the three types of sail.

     I am now much more understanding of the issues. I have photographs of a Freedom 28 rigged with I think flat panels on each mast, the bottom panel on each of which is very tall and the whole sail looks awful.To my mind if it "looks" awful it probably is! I daren't name the boat for fear of causing offence to the previous owner, so your final remarks about Badger carry some resonance, although I have not yet had time to go in search of the photographs you mention. Thanks so much for your prompt response and you have started me on the road to clarification and I hope the "right" decision.


    I am not sure where I can find the photographs you mention of Badgers sails
  • 11 Nov 2011 19:44
    Reply # 747847 on 746824
    Deleted user
    Rodney,

    Flutterby is a Freedom 33 (in the US aka 35 in the UK/Europe), and I expect to have the sails I designed for her up in a few weeks, and be able to report more about them.

    I sewed cambered sails, but did make my main sail more like Slieve's split rig. I believe there are reasons to use one on my forward-most sail:
    1. Slieve believes that having a "jib" like sail which has a clean leading edge out fully in front of the mast has aerodynamic benefits.
    2. When making cambered sails, either sewn or hinged battens, there are practical disadvantages to putting more than ~5% balance forward of the mast. When I drew up a rig using my existing masts, more balance on the main (~15%) seemed like a good idea to make the overall sailplan balance the boat better. A split sail behaves well with at least this much balance.
    The first point would apply to any multi-masted rig. The second is specific to the Freedom 33. The main/mizzen balance and underbody are different enough between the other Freedom cat ketches that I won't speak to them. 

    Some Freedom 33's also have a "tall rig" with a bigger main mast than mine, and that would change things too....although several junk sailors feel that Freedom made cat ketch masts which are taller than is needed for a properly sized junk rig. I designed mine use pretty much the full hoist of the masts, giving me pretty generous sail area.

    Look for much better answers as to how my ideas worked out after some test sailing.

    Barry
  • 11 Nov 2011 19:37
    Reply # 747843 on 747825
    Rodney Whitworth wrote:
    Thanks so much for your very interesting remarks about the Freedom and its rig. I have not yet persued your links in the article but am intrigued by the concept of the convex luff which I have not yet quite grasped. Does the whole sail have convex shape or just each panel between the battens having a convex luff but the overall sail still remaining vertical at the luff? no doubt the answer will be apparent when I have the photos David mentions in his posting.
    Rodney,
    Have a look in 'Your online file storage/drawings/Annies conversion' for pdf pictures of the sail drawing for Fantail.
    Jester had a sail with a convex luff, and didn't need a luff parrel. Slieve also designed his split junk rig for Poppy with a convex shape to the overall luff of the jibs (not each individual jib), with the intention that the sail should hang from the halyard in a more natural, less distorted way, needing less pulling into shape with hauling parrels. 
  • 11 Nov 2011 18:57
    Reply # 747825 on 747086
    Deleted user
    Brian Kerslake wrote:Rodney

    I'm plus 65 like you, and have just converted my Freedom 39 to a schooner junk (see Paradox schooner junk) with sails etc by Chris Scanes/Sunbird Marine. We completed the rig late in the season and only got one short cruise in her from Portland Marina (UK) to East Cowes, so I can't really say much about the success of the conversion yet. But it was good to be handling a junk again rather than the Freedom. Its revealing that junks are still being developed while Freedoms are kind of left-overs from the 80s.

    As ever, David summed up your options succinctly and well. All I can add really is that a Freedom is the way to go if you want a good-looking hull that had good performance under her original rig. We looked at 35s (known as 33s in the States), 39s, 40s and a 45. The 40s seemed to fall into a higher berth price bracket than the 39, while the 35 had an unconvincing aft cabin and limited storage space. Both very pretty boats, though, which look great with junk ketch sails. The 39 was only available as a schooner, which is what we're used to and decided to stick with. Have you looked at the very informative and active Freedom yachts web site which has lots of info and images of the various models?

    In the two seasons we had with the original (pretty worn) rig we found it a challenging sailing machine which required the sort of strength and agility that my crew and I no longer have. The wishbone version (ours had sails in tracks rather than wraparound) is said to be a pain when the wrap-around sails get wet. Gybing ours was hazardous until we learned to tame the main with the Dutchman Boom Brake that came with the boat. (I'm going to see if this will tame Paradox's foresail which, as on our previous boat, a Sunbird 32 schooner junk which we owned for almost 30 years, is sure to be blanketed downwind by the main.)

    Our cambered sails set well, appear to have tremendous power, and look good - sadly no off-boat sailing photos yet. They reef as well as our Sunbird 32s sails did. I didn't much like having to adjust the luff hauling parrels to retain the camber, and will be trying Hong Kong parrels next season. David's idea of a convex luff is intriguing though I can't yet quite see why it works. It certainly wouldn't work on our mainsail, ie. between our masts, but could I guess have been used on the fore. We still have to figure out how to avoid the foresheets occasionally catching the main boom. So there's lots to explore, which is half of the fun of the junk - it isn't just an off-the-shelf solution like the majority of boats these days. The other half is simply sailing an eye-catching, sensible, easily-handled cruising rig.

    Good luck with your decisions, and if I can help at all, please get back to me.

    Thanks so much for your very interesting remarks about the Freedom and its rig. I have not yet persued your links in the article but am intrigued by the concept of the convex luff which I have not yet quite grasped. Does the whole sail have convex shape or just each panel between the battens having a convex luff but the overall sail still remaining vertical at the luff? no doubt the answer will be apparent when I have the photos David mentions in his posting.
  • 11 Nov 2011 18:43
    Reply # 747813 on 746943
    Deleted user
    David Tyler wrote:Hello Rodney,
    Let's see what we can do to aid you in your decision making.

    It has been quite commonly found that a flat sailed junk rig is slow in stays. This is simply because there is so little drive when pointing high that the boat cannot be "powered" through the tack. This applies to Hasler sails, mostly. Where the sail is flat, but the planform is fanned, there is actually a useful amount of camber developed when the sail is allowed to twist a little. This is the "fiendishly cunning chinese" way of adding camber that Blondie Hasler did not take fully into account, choosing instead the more easily designed geometry of the parallelogram panels combined with a couple of triangular top panels.

    As to the modern sail types:
    1. The split junk is showing promise as a racing and coastal cruising rig. It is fast, there's no doubt of it - if it is made with exactly  the right geometry of jib/slot/mainsail. I'm not sure that Slieve, the originator of the variant, thinks he has the final answer to the shaping of the jibs. From the open sea sailing perspective, I would not like to use it until something has been found to prevent the jibs from flogging when empty of wind, a very un-junk-like characteristic. The jibs hang down and obscure the view forward when reefed or furled. The type is not appropriate for a two masted rig, in any case, so I think you can discount it as an option for re-rigging a Freedom. 

    2. Hinged battens have been used successfully by some and unsuccessfully by others. They depend on having very soundly engineered hinges - which are not available commercially, and so you would have to have an engineering background to take on the job of designing and making your own. The hinge has to be further aft than is desirable for getting the camber in the right place for maximum drive. Otherwise, it tends to hinge the wrong way, or to fail to articulate at all (a question of how much balance area there is forward of the mast compared to the position of the hinge aft of the mast). Hinges have the advantage of being used with a flat sail - which is easier and quicker to make.

    3. Yesterday, I sailed on Annie Hill's Fantail for the first time, with the sail I designed for her to make. It is fanned, and has 6% camber in the lower panels. It is now set up with the standard junk rig lines of halyard, yard parrel, luff parrel and 5 -part sheet. Annie tells me that I had a smile on my face whilst I was sailing. Fantail was fast and lively to windward, yet she retained the docility and ease of handling of the flat sail. Due, I think, to the convex curve I added to the luff, we were able to dispense with the Hong Kong parrels that are usually needed with a cambered panel sail, resulting in a much better setting sail on port tack. I'm convinced that this type of sail - cambered panels, fanned planform, convex luff, straight-ish leech and stiff battens - is the best "modern" choice for a single masted boat. 

    However, and unfortunately, I cannot see a way to get all of these features, so good on a single sailed boat, into the rig on a two-masted boat. A fanned sail necessarily has to have a strong aft stagger to the battens as they are reefed and furled, and it is difficult to find room for the sails and the sheeting system, particularly on a short-ended boat such as the Freedoms. For my best shot so far at schooner/ketch design, look at the photos of the suit of tan-coloured sails I made for Badger before I left England. They have a moderate amount of camber in the lower, parallelogram panels, which are as deep vertically as is consistent with sheeting and handling considerations; the yards are set at as steep an angle as practicable, with two unsheeted battens in the fanned head of the sails, so as to keep each panel small for "storm sail" use.


    Hello David,

    What a succinct summary of the three types of sail.

     I am now much more understanding of the issues. I have photographs of a Freedom 28 rigged with I think flat panels on each mast, the bottom panel on each of which is very tall and the whole sail looks awful.To my mind if it "looks" awful it probably is! I daren't name the boat for fear of causing offence to the previous owner, so your final remarks about Badger carry some resonance, although I have not yet had time to go in search of the photographs you mention. Thanks so much for your prompt response and you have started me on the road to clarification and I hope the "right" decision.

  • 11 Nov 2011 01:30
    Reply # 747086 on 746824
    Deleted user
    Rodney

    I'm plus 65 like you, and have just converted my Freedom 39 to a schooner junk (see Paradox schooner junk) with sails etc by Chris Scanes/Sunbird Marine. We completed the rig late in the season and only got one short cruise in her from Portland Marina (UK) to East Cowes, so I can't really say much about the success of the conversion yet. But it was good to be handling a junk again rather than the Freedom. Its revealing that junks are still being developed while Freedoms are kind of left-overs from the 80s.

    As ever, David summed up your options succinctly and well. All I can add really is that a Freedom is the way to go if you want a good-looking hull that had good performance under her original rig. We looked at 35s (known as 33s in the States), 39s, 40s and a 45. The 40s seemed to fall into a higher berth price bracket than the 39, while the 35 had an unconvincing aft cabin and limited storage space. Both very pretty boats, though, which look great with junk ketch sails. The 39 was only available as a schooner, which is what we're used to and decided to stick with. Have you looked at the very informative and active Freedom yachts web site which has lots of info and images of the various models?

    In the two seasons we had with the original (pretty worn) rig we found it a challenging sailing machine which required the sort of strength and agility that my crew and I no longer have. The wishbone version (ours had sails in tracks rather than wraparound) is said to be a pain when the wrap-around sails get wet. Gybing ours was hazardous until we learned to tame the main with the Dutchman Boom Brake that came with the boat. (I'm going to see if this will tame Paradox's foresail which, as on our previous boat, a Sunbird 32 schooner junk which we owned for almost 30 years, is sure to be blanketed downwind by the main.)

    Our cambered sails set well, appear to have tremendous power, and look good - sadly no off-boat sailing photos yet. They reef as well as our Sunbird 32s sails did. I didn't much like having to adjust the luff hauling parrels to retain the camber, and will be trying Hong Kong parrels next season. David's idea of a convex luff is intriguing though I can't yet quite see why it works. It certainly wouldn't work on our mainsail, ie. between our masts, but could I guess have been used on the fore. We still have to figure out how to avoid the foresheets occasionally catching the main boom. So there's lots to explore, which is half of the fun of the junk - it isn't just an off-the-shelf solution like the majority of boats these days. The other half is simply sailing an eye-catching, sensible, easily-handled cruising rig.

    Good luck with your decisions, and if I can help at all, please get back to me.
    Last modified: 11 Nov 2011 01:45 | Deleted user
  • 10 Nov 2011 20:13
    Reply # 746943 on 746824
    Hello Rodney,
    Let's see what we can do to aid you in your decision making.

    It has been quite commonly found that a flat sailed junk rig is slow in stays. This is simply because there is so little drive when pointing high that the boat cannot be "powered" through the tack. This applies to Hasler sails, mostly. Where the sail is flat, but the planform is fanned, there is actually a useful amount of camber developed when the sail is allowed to twist a little. This is the "fiendishly cunning chinese" way of adding camber that Blondie Hasler did not take fully into account, choosing instead the more easily designed geometry of the parallelogram panels combined with a couple of triangular top panels.

    As to the modern sail types:
    1. The split junk is showing promise as a racing and coastal cruising rig. It is fast, there's no doubt of it - if it is made with exactly  the right geometry of jib/slot/mainsail. I'm not sure that Slieve, the originator of the variant, thinks he has the final answer to the shaping of the jibs. From the open sea sailing perspective, I would not like to use it until something has been found to prevent the jibs from flogging when empty of wind, a very un-junk-like characteristic. The jibs hang down and obscure the view forward when reefed or furled. The type is not appropriate for a two masted rig, in any case, so I think you can discount it as an option for re-rigging a Freedom. 

    2. Hinged battens have been used successfully by some and unsuccessfully by others. They depend on having very soundly engineered hinges - which are not available commercially, and so you would have to have an engineering background to take on the job of designing and making your own. The hinge has to be further aft than is desirable for getting the camber in the right place for maximum drive. Otherwise, it tends to hinge the wrong way, or to fail to articulate at all (a question of how much balance area there is forward of the mast compared to the position of the hinge aft of the mast). Hinges have the advantage of being used with a flat sail - which is easier and quicker to make.

    3. Yesterday, I sailed on Annie Hill's Fantail for the first time, with the sail I designed for her to make. It is fanned, and has 6% camber in the lower panels. It is now set up with the standard junk rig lines of halyard, yard parrel, luff parrel and 5 -part sheet. Annie tells me that I had a smile on my face whilst I was sailing. Fantail was fast and lively to windward, yet she retained the docility and ease of handling of the flat sail. Due, I think, to the convex curve I added to the luff, we were able to dispense with the Hong Kong parrels that are usually needed with a cambered panel sail, resulting in a much better setting sail on port tack. I'm convinced that this type of sail - cambered panels, fanned planform, convex luff, straight-ish leech and stiff battens - is the best "modern" choice for a single masted boat. 

    However, and unfortunately, I cannot see a way to get all of these features, so good on a single sailed boat, into the rig on a two-masted boat. A fanned sail necessarily has to have a strong aft stagger to the battens as they are reefed and furled, and it is difficult to find room for the sails and the sheeting system, particularly on a short-ended boat such as the Freedoms. For my best shot so far at schooner/ketch design, look at the photos of the suit of tan-coloured sails I made for Badger before I left England. They have a moderate amount of camber in the lower, parallelogram panels, which are as deep vertically as is consistent with sheeting and handling considerations; the yards are set at as steep an angle as practicable, with two unsheeted battens in the fanned head of the sails, so as to keep each panel small for "storm sail" use.
  • 10 Nov 2011 18:02
    Message # 746824
    Deleted user

    Being a "new member" of six years with a bermudan rigged Stag 28, my first ever boat, now up for sale, I have my eye on the Freedom(Herrschoff/Hoyt cat rig 1978-84) 40ft, 35ft 28ft hull with two carbon fibre masts rigged with the taller mast at the bow. Bearing in mind that these boats were designed for fast down/cross wind sailing and knowing that their upwind performance was not outstanding, they, when first produced, did win a number of races on the eastern USA seaboard, WHICH of the current three "modern" sails would the experts suggest I fit to a 35 ft or 28ft Freedom hull?

    Arne Kvernland has said he converted from a Sunbird rig to his own cambered panel rig for the reason that he found the Sunbird one "slow tacking".Please explain. Ocean robustness and having to do as little maintenance as possible combined with easy manouvreing strike me as the main benefits of the junk rig for the over 65's like me!

    I am in three minds! Should I have a three masted vessel?(joke)

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