Split Junk, Cambered panel or hinged batten sail. Which to choose?

  • 03 Dec 2012 08:22
    Reply # 1151033 on 746824
    Of late there have been many posts with regards to what sort of junk rig one would want to put on ones boat. These comments have ranged from the well informed to the the puzzled first timer trying to get a handle on all of this.

    What stands out to me as an NA (I served an apprenticeship but have never practiced... shows how old I am :-)  ) is a complete lack of consideration of the hull. You cannot consider the rig without considering the hull that it is mounted upon. Some hull rig combinations are so obviously made for one another (the American cat boat springs to mind and also the Scottish Zulu) that one does not tend to think of the hull and the rig as separate entities but as one unit. However, for most boats it is not so.

    The lovers of flat or flatish (or flat enough) sails have made their arguments and like wise the gentlemen (and ladies) who like cambered sails have stated their case but as I have said, no one has mentioned the hull.

    However the hull and the rig are not independent entities, they have to function together, in concert else performance will be indifferent. Some hulls need (indeed demand) a rig with cambered sails, others will work with either. What is the criteria?

    Historically flat & flatish sails have worked best with light displacement hulls and easily driven hull forms (long & narrow also helps). Jester and Kurt's mehetable come to mind. I have sailed with Kurt on mehetable and there is no doubt that mehetable sails well. There is also no doubt that Kurt understands his boat and how to get the best out of her (yet another consideration). If you understand your boat and her rig, you are going to get far more out of her than if you do not.

    Heavy displacement hulls are different, many heavy displacement hulls are relatively easily driven but they do take power to accelerate and to get moving. They also take power to drive in a seaway. Many are under canvased as well, which does not help things and they are often short on deck space to boot. If you put a flat junk sail on this sort of hull, you are going to be disappointed.

    Putting a flat sail on heavy (and in particular, short) hulls is what gives rise to lack luster performance, complaints that the boat will not tack or that you have to have a lot of way on before you can commence to tack. Or the boat falls off a long way before you can get going again on your new tack. While many put up with flat sails on a heavy hull because they do not know any better or possibly because they think that camber causes complications that they would rather not have. I beg to differ.

    A heavy hull needs drive and the only way that I know of to give it what it needs is to put camber (shape) into the sail. The more under canvased your boat is, the more you need camber. It is that simple. Camber is a means of getting more drive out of a given sail area. That is why just about every rig currently used has camber (yes, even square rigs have it). Yes, your boat is going to heel more with a cambered rig, because heel and drive are closely related and should you draw a vector digram for self, you will soon see that (you can minimize heel by moving the point of maxim camber forward but there are other considerations and I'm not dealing with that within this article). Should you find the increased heel unacceptable, reduce the sail area and the boat will heel less.

    Doubtless adding camber to a sail has disadvantages as well as advantages (this has been discussed in detail by others) but please do bear in mind, it's not just whether you like the idea of camber or not. You do need to consider the hull that you are putting the rig on. You need to understand what camber can an cannot do for you and what your particular hull needs. Blanket statements about camber do not cover the whole picture.
    Last modified: 03 Dec 2012 08:29 | Anonymous member
  • 02 Dec 2012 22:24
    Reply # 1150757 on 746824
    Arne & David,

    But gentlemen, they are not flat - they are Flat Enough.

    Kurt
  • 02 Dec 2012 22:03
    Reply # 1150743 on 746824
    Hello Everyone,

    I'm happy to see this topic open up again! It's like a brainstorming session before narrowing choices towards the commitment to sew. A bit of a stir-up for those of us who've committed something already...

    One good thing about all the choices remaining once a junk is settled on, is that none is likely to result in an unredeemable disaster, if common sense and some conservative trials precede the boat's trip to Antarctica.

    And it's great that a 'newbie' looking for junk options now, has the chance to be mystified. That's healthy. My own conclusions are public, thanks to David Tyler's polite coaxing, and I look forward to any discussions. 

    I can almost look forward to planning mehitabel's next rig. No, no, no... But I will pull out my old smooth-curve-and-stop batten sketches, one day.

    Let me echo Barry & Meps's comment acknowledging how well-worked-out Arne's designs and methods are, and extend the same towards anyone who has made junk sails more than once, and made them Good Enough or Better.
    Especially the ones who've shared their ideas.
     
    Cheers,
    Kurt

    Last modified: 02 Dec 2012 22:16 | Anonymous member
  • 02 Dec 2012 18:26
    Reply # 1150657 on 1150515
    Deleted user
    Arne Kverneland wrote:After having experienced, yet again, this summer, how straightforward the construction and rigging process is, on 'Edmond Dantes’ new sail (..the whole project took less than a month...), I see no reason for making radical changes. Construct the sail, rig the sail, and go sailing, period. That procedure suits me fine.
    I was just saying to Meps "The next set of junk sails I sew/rig will be more fun and easier."

    I suspect you are correct that your plan is a little simpler than some others...but there is another important thing that makes it so quick and easy for you:

    You tried at least three fairly different ideas on how to construct junk sails before you found one you liked...and then once you found one you liked, you used it for the next half-dozen sails you made.

    YOU have a lot of practice doing this, and have all the details figured out how to do it your way!
  • 02 Dec 2012 18:07
    Reply # 1150645 on 746824
    Arne,
    There's truth in what you say, but I'd rather restate the reasoning as:
    • Wider panels - if they have a lot of camber in them, easier to set than:
    • Narrower panels - better to be flatter.
    It's not directly about whether fanned sails are more difficult to set than parallelogram sails if they are cambered, but about whether fanned sails have narrower panels, and are therefore more difficult to set than parallelogram paneled sails if those panels are cambered.

    (We could also say that high aspect ratio sails are more difficult to set than low aspect ratio sails, if they are cambered - as was the case with Ti Gitu)

    But in both cases, I'll stick to my view that long-distance, long-term liveaboard sailors are better served by flatter (but not flat) sails. It's not just about sailing offshore, it's about the difference between using your sails as motive power for your mobile home, and using your sails as motive power for sailing your boat for sport or leisure. Flatter sails are easier to live with.
  • 02 Dec 2012 12:19
    Reply # 1150515 on 746824
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

                                                                     Stavanger, Sunday

    I have followed Annie’s work with making and rigging ‘Fantail’s’ sail with interest on these fora. Just as with David Thatcher she seemed to spend a lot of time in getting the sail to stand well, and the sail still needs quite some attention to look fine. I also got the message that Shirley Carter with her Vertue, 'Speedwell', rigged with camber (shelf foot) in her Reddish style fan sail, has now modified her sail back to flat sail.

    Their problems seem to stand in total contrast to the cambered panel HM style sails of medium AR that we make here in Stavanger. After having learned about the forces involved in these sails, it is now just a matter of sewing, rigging and then going sailing.

    I am not sure, but I start to wonder if the HM-style sail could be better suited for use with camber than the fanned sails. The reason could be that the lower section with parallel battens and vertical luff and leech will be less prone to falling forward and distort the panels, provided that the important throat hauling parrel has been set up first. The HK-parrels are now reduced to lightly-loaded trimming lines. Also, the HM sail keeps the yard fully peaked up until one is down on 3 panels (in my case) and this 3-panel top section is then really useful, even upwind in a blow.

    After having experienced, yet again, this summer, how straightforward the construction and rigging process is, on 'Edmond Dantes’ new sail (..the whole project took less than a month...), I see no reason for making radical changes. Construct the sail, rig the sail, and go sailing, period. That procedure suits me fine.

    Cheers, Arne

    PS: It could well be that a typical offshore traveller is better off with a flat sail, but that is another story. Offshore travellers are in their own league and thrashing to windward against 3m+ seas is not for decent cruising people (..still, I have never heard about Bm-rigged offshore boats not having any camber in their sails...).

     

    Last modified: 02 Dec 2012 16:31 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 02 Dec 2012 05:27
    Reply # 1150464 on 746824
    Deleted user

    'Which rig?' has been exactly the question that I have spent almost 5 years pondering with Footprints. I originally bought Footprints for the boat and not the junk rig that came with her. By the end of summer one I was thinking I had made a massisve mistake buying a boat with a junk rig. As it turned out though my problems with the rig had their cause in the fact that the builder of the boat and the rig had made just about every mistake possible to make with a junk rig. (Thankfully they did not make the same mistakes with the construction of the boat).

    By the end of that first summer I knew I had to fix the rig somehow. I bought a copy of PJR and set about rebuilding the sail I had. This involved some reshaping of the sail and replacing the 4 original and very bendy battens with 6 much stiffer battens. By summer two I at least had a junk rig which worked. By summer three I was starting to enjoy the benefits of the junk rig not the least was the fact that I had to deal with only one sail on the boat which by now was proving to be very easy to handle.

    I knew though that 'Footprints' was not reaching her full sailing potential, and having come from a background of mutihulls I found this a little frustrating. Year 3 of ownership saw me exploring all sorts of rig options for 'Footprints' and which could be retrofitted, ranging from a very conventional bermudan rig, a gaff cutter rig which had also been originally designed for the boat, a high tech rotating wing mast rig with roachy mainsail and small self tacking jib, (which I really would still like to build), and also different variations of the junk rig. Enter David Tyler and Tystie with her wing sails. After talking to David and watching Tysites performance I decided that Footprints had to have a soft wingsail and David even designed the wing sections for me. This was the sail I was going to build.

    However, and fortunatly as it has turned out, a new house project saw all boat projects put on hold for a year. By the end of 2011 I was back to thinking about the boat and her rig and enter David Tyler again and this time suggesting a Fan shaped cambered panel sail. This seemed like a good answer to solving the rig question for Footprints, and by early this year I was also aware that I would need to make a new sail soon as the original rig was by then 15 years old. As has been well documented the construction of the new sail was carried out during February of this year and it has really taken the rest of the year until now to get the new sail working well.

    So the point of all this is that for Footprints at least I now feel that I have got the best possible sail for the boat. That is a single fan shaped cambered panel junk sail. This sail suits her single masted low aspect rig and probably I think is the best sail to realise the full sailing potential of the boat. Sure I might also be able to achieve the same sailing potential from some sort of bermudan rig, but that would involve a different kind of mast, lots of standing rigging, multiple sail handling winches, headsails to manipulate when sailing down wind, and a lot more stress on the boat and the rig. Cambered panel vs. flat sail? Well a cambered panel sail is what I have got now and given that David Tyler has successfully sailed from New Zealand to Hawaii single handed with what is essentially the identical sail gives me confidence that my cambered panel sail is capable of crossing oceans, and also providing the slightly more performance orientated inshore sailing which I enjoy so much.

  • 02 Dec 2012 03:46
    Reply # 1150438 on 746824
    Deleted user
    And all these things get more complicated when you try to make them fit on a specific boat. A couple examples:

    If you have a multi-masted rig, shapes like Arne's (or HM) play better with each other than fan shaped sails.

    If you have a single masted rig, most sails shouldn't perform as well with more than 5~10% balance in front of the mast. Sewn camber sails (Arne's and likely others) . I expect this is true of the fantail shape also.

    Slieve told me that he thought this split rig would work best with at least 30% balance, and last I heard he hadn't worked out the upper limit. There isn't much point in doing it with only 5~10% balance.

    So other factors besides "which sail is best" will influence the best rig for a given boat.
  • 02 Dec 2012 00:00
    Reply # 1150342 on 1150324
    Bruce Weller wrote:Having read Arne on the cambered rig (and become an instant convert), then David on the fanned rig (converted) and Slieve on the split rig (converted again) and now Kurt Jon's latest (converted back to my PJR start) I must seriously ask myself whether I am just a junk-tart*?

    I shudder to think what simultaneously following all my enthusiasms will do to innocent sailcloth so, after some searching, I have brought this topic back so that I can review it in some detail and perhaps finally work out the best sail for my proposed Welsford Pilgrim or just do what the designer has drawn.

    The postings may also assist others facing my dilemma.

    Bruce W

    *Call it out as self-deprecating humour if you will be so kind.
    "..and now Kurt Jon's latest". Kurt ends by saying that he'd favour a Fantail planform of sail, but cut flat, for a single mast rig. I've come to the conclusion that  this is best for an offshore rig, but that an inshore rig will benefit from a little camber in the lower panels. (Kurt agrees). 
    The Fantail planform takes a little more thought and work to plot out on the sail loft floor, than does a HM sail. but the gains are commensurate. 
    Decisions, decisions...
  • 01 Dec 2012 23:07
    Reply # 1150324 on 746824
    Deleted user
    Having read Arne on the cambered rig (and become an instant convert), then David on the fanned rig (converted) and Slieve on the split rig (converted again) and now Kurt Jon's latest (converted back to my PJR start) I must seriously ask myself whether I am just a junk-tart*?

    I shudder to think what simultaneously following all my enthusiasms will do to innocent sailcloth so, after some searching, I have brought this topic back so that I can review it in some detail and perhaps finally work out the best sail for my proposed Welsford Pilgrim or just do what the designer has drawn.

    The postings may also assist others facing my dilemma.

    Bruce W

    *Call it out as self-deprecating humour if you will be so kind.
       " ...there is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing as simply messing about in junk-rigged boats" 
                                                               - the Chinese Water Rat

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