Split Junk, Cambered panel or hinged batten sail. Which to choose?

  • 04 Dec 2012 19:19
    Reply # 1152274 on 1151850
    Slieve McGalliard wrote:

     

    PPS. I tried an idea sent by Arne to help me paste this .doc into the thread, but to no avail, and ended up re-typing most of it. There is something very funny going on with this programme, or have I been censored?


    Hi Slieve, MS Office is not a good tool if you want to use your output in other mediums. This is because office inserts various control characters for formating (that you do not see). Other applications do not understand the Office formating and so you run into trouble.

    The best way to avoid these problems is to write in a plain text editor. Notepad is included with the MS Windows OS and will do the job. Something rather better is Notepad++ that you can get here http://notepad-plus-plus.org/   (you will not need all it's features, it's programmers tool). If you write your copy in Notepad++ or Notepad you will just be able to copy and paste into the JRA forum editor without any problems.
  • 04 Dec 2012 17:26
    Reply # 1152170 on 1151850
    Deleted user
    Slieve McGalliard wrote:

    Gentlemen (Webmaster edit: and ladies]


    PS. I have just heard on the Breakfast Programme on TV that one of the world’s longest running comics, the ‘Dandy’ will be printing its last copy today. From now on it will only be published on-line. Is this a sign of the times for all publications?


    PPS. I tried an idea sent by Arne to help me paste this .doc into the thread, but to no avail, and ended up re-typing most of it. There is something very funny going on with this programme, or have I been censored?

     

    Slieve, why should all publications go the way of the Dandy? I heard it was down to a < 5,000 print run. How it will fare as an interactive comic is anyone's guess. 

    Re pasting Word docs into a forum, you ain't been censored. A few days ago I posted some tips on how to do this here; t's best avoided for the reasons given there.
  • 04 Dec 2012 15:27
    Reply # 1152084 on 746824

    Following this link, I realise I must be extremely lucky to have "inhertated" one of Arnes sail. Even when I added an extra panel on the sail, it has been a doodle to set up and sail with. Having just returned from the advent regatta in the Karmsundet, I have to write up a detailed observation as I had the privelege to sail with a standard X-99 with a full crew. They did sail away from me, but to quote the captain: You came 17minutes behind us after a 2 hours sail, pretty cold, while we had 5 persons sweathing and (sometimes) swearing. The sailing conditiones were far from ideal for my rig, but that is no excuse. I will write more in "Racing with a Junk"

    Ketil

  • 04 Dec 2012 07:48
    Reply # 1151860 on 746824
    Deleted user
    Kurt Jon is right about mystifying the newbie, however 'faint but pursuing' I am getting there.

    Point about hull form has now really hit home. Designer, John Welsford, characterises the Pilgrim as 'like a Land Rover all set up for serious off road adventuring'. On that basis, and my plans for inshore pottering about the d'Entrecasteaux Channel, I lean maximising performance under sail.

    If I read the posts to date correctly, a planned, cambered sail will be the preference in these circumstances. As a control freak I take comfort in making rather than letting the camber happen.

    I like the look of both the fanned planform and split rig but at this stage this is, on my part, an aesthetic whim. I worry about the mast distorting the camber on the 'other' tack and, quite frankly, do not yet understand the benefits of the fan structure. Is this discussed somewhere?

    More of a challenge to build and whether the two could be combined I do not know. Decisions!

    Many thanks for the contributions from all parties; a very lively topic and valuable to this writer.

    Bruce W
  • 04 Dec 2012 07:12
    Reply # 1151850 on 746824

    Gentlemen

    This thread has really come to life in the last couple of days with some extremely interesting points being made, but also some which I feel could be misleading to owners looking for rigs for their boats. I want to ‘wade in’ with a long examination but life is just too hectic at the moment, but now at 5 AM in the morning I find that thinking about it is stopping me getting the sleep I need.

     

    Paul, your point that it is important to consider the hull before considering the rig is a strong one, but I feel there is a risk that we could end up suggesting that one particular type of hull should only have a particular type of rig mounted on top, and so on down the line. This is not something we should encourage as it could discourage experimentation, and could discourage the use of some very seaworthy hulls.

     

    Take the analogy of internal combustion engines. It would be ridiculous to fit a high revving F1 racing car engine to a cement/ concrete mixer, or the put a single cylinder diesel thumper in a F1 car, but there is no reason why these engines will not do jobs other than the ones they were basically designed for. A cement mixer does not require 300 bhp at 18,000 rpm, but if properly scaled and fitted with an appropriate gearbox the same engine could drive a very long line of cement mixers. The big difference in the two engines is in their efficiency in both power/ torque per calorie fuel intake and power to weight ratio. Think of using an Olympus jet engine, as used in the supersonic Concorde or Phantom fighter, in a naval destroyer and the answer is that the power plant can be used efficiently in quite different applications by adapting it's output to the different vehicle/ vessel.

     

    Similarly, different boat hulls have different sailing characteristics in terms of keel efficiency and wave making drag. All hulls deserve an efficient rig and to put an inefficient rig on either a ‘blunt tub’ or a sleek racing hull is pointless, or at least a waste of effort. The important thing, as you suggest Paul, it to match the rig to the hull. Rather than fit a stereotype rig I believe it is more important to match the area of the rig so that the hull is not over pressed or under driven.

     

    I had a most interesting sail on Anthony Cooke’s dinghy ‘Duffy’ in the summer in the restricted waters of the river Yar above the bridge at Yarmouth IOW. There was no more than 5 boat lengths available when beating before having to start the next tack. Now this is a situation in which the split junk is ideal yet progress was slow. The dinghy has a long straght keel which ends in a long stemmed wine glass shaped transom, and a rudder only a little deeper than the stem of the wine glass. The relatively small metal plate centreboard was not that effective, so the hull was happy to run in a straight line when travelling at a reasonable speed, but when slowed down even slightly the leeway was horrendous, the hull drag rocketed up and the hull slowed right down. Apparently the local sailmaker was very complementary about the performance of the split rig, probably because he knew the shape of the hull and was aware that even with a Bermudan rig it would have been very difficult to drive up wind in a narrow river.

     

    Now I am convinced that if fitted with a flat junk sail that particular hull would not be able to sail up wind at all in the narrow waters of the river as I doubt if it would be able to get through the wind even once, and even if motored or rowed onto the correct heading would not drive fast enough to make the keel work and reduce the hull drag.

     

    My point is that every hull, be it a blunt or fast shape with a good keel, will benefit from a rig with a high lift/ drag ratio, or in other words, an efficient rig. A well designed cambered rig can give high lift, and should also give good alpha tolerance to the varying wind direction due to wave action. Equally, a well shaped sail profile should produce a low drag result, remembering that total rig drag is made up a number of components. Flat rigs are just not able to produce a high L/D ratio so are not able not produce the best performance possible from any hull.

     

    I can hear the long distance cruising brigade reaching for their keyboards, but please remember that I am talking aerodynamics and not structural considerations. If you are cruising and have a rig that will tack positively through 80° that it is not necessary to sail it that way when plodding to windward. It is useful to get you out of a sticky situation, but to cruise at 50° to the wind will be more comfortable and probably more upright even than the flat sail for the same or better hull speed. Similarly, when further off the wind the overall speed should be either higher, if wanted, or the same if reefed further and producing less sideways stress on the boat. If the wind is light then the greater performance from the available sail area on all points of sail should be welcome to any cruising sailor.

     

    When cambered rigs are criticised in terms of chafe and cruising durability then we should look for passive ways to overcome these problems, if they actually are problems and not over talked excuses to make a ‘political’ point.

     

    You may notice that I mentioned that I was talking about ‘well designed’ cambered junk rigs. Reading some of the recent reports which have compared flat to cambered rigs I realise that there is a wide range of performance being achieved from some of the cambered rigs being built both by amateurs and professional sail makers. Similarly the droopy appearance varies from rig to rig. The various methods of producing cambered panels are not all equal, and more thought should be put into this area. Somewhere along the line we must encourage the building of ‘good’ cambered sails and not just any old ‘cambered’ sail. Then opinions may change as sailors experience good cambered rigs.

     

    Having got that off my chest there is now no point in going back to bed. Once again I have lost sleep over junk rigs. That’s not good.

     

    Cheers

    Slieve

    PS. I have just heard on the Breakfast Programme on TV that one of the world’s longest running comics, the ‘Dandy’ will be printing its last copy today. From now on it will only be published on-line. Is this a sign of the times for all publications?

     

    PPS. I tried an idea sent by Arne to help me paste this .doc into the thread, but to no avail, and ended up re-typing most of it. There is something very funny going on with this programme, or have I been censored?

     

     

    Last modified: 04 Dec 2012 17:22 | Anonymous member
  • 04 Dec 2012 06:41
    Reply # 1151835 on 746824
    Hi Gary,

    We don't sail near many cruising boats, but yes, we've been out-pointed. I don't remember if we've been out-run. Bermudan sailors have commented, impressed, when they've seen us turn onto a broad reach. No conclusions. Our boat isn't terribly fast and we're not trying very hard either.

    Cheers,
    Kurt

  • 03 Dec 2012 23:37
    Reply # 1151655 on 746824
    Deleted user
    Kurt, in other forums (and I can only say this because I've never seen a junk in these waters) they make comments like, "yeah saw a junk yesterday, sailed a circle around it"... So I wonder, do you get cruiser type bermudians sail right past you often?
    Last modified: 03 Dec 2012 23:39 | Deleted user
  • 03 Dec 2012 20:47
    Reply # 1151548 on 746824
    Hi Folks,

    [KJU edit - deleted a couple of paragraphs.]

    'Enough' is a concept that makes heaps of sense to me. That's why I happily write about the merits of flat-cut sails. I've only just held back, so far, from introducing a concept I learned in Korea - 'Too Enough.' I don't know if we're ready...

    Arne: About getting camber through twist - a picture is worth a thousand words, thus the photos in the 'Merits of...' article. It was easy to get that camber. It isn't much, but it's enough. 

    Kurt

    Last modified: 04 Dec 2012 06:44 | Anonymous member
  • 03 Dec 2012 14:04
    Reply # 1151120 on 746824
    It's right to talk about matching the rig to the boat. Heavy boats with flat HM rigs have been known to sail so badly that they won't even tack, and it's quite possible, literally, to overpower a light, narrow, tender boat.

    It's right to talk about matching the rig to the sailor. Some people want to demonstrate, every Saturday afternoon, that they can reach a destination before the guy in the other boat, but some people really don't mind whether they reach a destination this Saturday, or next Saturday.

    It's right to talk about matching the rig to the type of sailing. In coastal sailing it can be important to reach a destination before dark, but in ocean sailing, it's important to put from your mind all thoughts of a landfall until the last day, and think about your comfort today.

    It's right to talk about matching the rig to the mileage to be covered. A rig for 500 miles a year (20 weekends of 25 miles) should not be the same as a rig for 10,000 miles a year (a 3-year circumnavigation).

    And so only when all these things (and maybe others I haven't thought of) have been brought together can it be right to start to make value judgements, and to start to use phrases such as "too flat, flat enough, cambered enough, too cambered", and "too slow, fast enough, good enough - and too fast".
  • 03 Dec 2012 12:09
    Reply # 1151090 on 746824
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Hi again from sunny, snow-covered Stavanger!

    It seems that my letter about the cambered HM-style sail from yesterday has caught someone’s attention: A few comments to the answers:

    David Tyler, with width of the panels, I guess you mean the vertical width, or batten distance? Here I have a dilemma: On the one hand I prefer to keep the panels rather narrow. This makes the luffs easier to set straight without using downhauls. In additions they let me use HK parrels with a slack angle and still without cutting into the sail far behind the mast. Finally narrow panels mean more battens to share the wind pressure. On the other hand narrow panels set a limit to how deep camber I can fit to a panel. On Edmond Dantes the 9% camber of a chord of 5.71m means a max dept of camber of 51cm and that is with only 120cm batten distance (panel width). I would not want to go much further than that.

    As for Ti Gitu and her problems; her sails with super-high AR and very steep sheet angles are far outside my frame of experience so I should rather not have any opinions here.

    Your saying about the offshore cruiser makes perfectly sense to me. I think I have written something similar in my Chapter 2 of ‘The Cambered Panel Junk Rig’.

    Barry, you may be a bit right in that things are easy to do when one has got enough practice, I buy that. Still, I made Malena’s 32sqm sail, back in 1994 and only spent 40hours on it and that included the 8 hours spent on fitting the rope-type boltrope. At that time I was less than half-good with a sewing machine, having just acquired my dear old Pfaff. If you bother with reading the how-to write-up, Chapter 5 of ‘The Cambered Panel Junk Rig’, you will see that it is no big deal. (..I need to write Chapter 3 on how to design the sail as well, to save myself a lot of work on answering letters...).

    Kurt, I am looking forward so reading a more detailed article about how to achieve camber through twist. My point in insisting on plenty of camber, at least on coastal cruisers and daysailers-weekenders is that these boats see 50% headwind. Just to get a VMG to windward of about 50% of the downwind speed can be a challenge.

    Paul, you are sooo right about the need for taking the boats into account! However, I don’t feel so guilty here as I have written over and over on the importance of using suitable hulls and also about the need for powerful rudders which a JR needs more than a Bm rig. Again, check that Chapter 2.

    Cheers; must go out and make some snow-angels!

    Arne

    Last modified: 03 Dec 2012 12:19 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
       " ...there is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing as simply messing about in junk-rigged boats" 
                                                               - the Chinese Water Rat

                                                              Site contents © the Junk Rig Association and/or individual authors

Powered by Wild Apricot Membership Software