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Split Junk, Cambered panel or hinged batten sail. Which to choose?

  • 05 Dec 2012 10:06
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    Reply # 1152782 on 746824
    Anonymous member
    Does Amiina's sail plan in the photo on Edward's post look just like Jester's?  Plus ca change ...  
  • 05 Dec 2012 01:47
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    Reply # 1152588 on 1152408
    Anonymous member
    Kurt Jon Ulmer wrote:
    Me. And people with less ambition for speedy and windward sailing, wanting security and comfort without complicating the design, building, trimming and sailing.

    Kurt, I have no bone to pick with you. You and mehetable and the way you use her are exactly the kind of balance that you get when your boat, your rig, your intended use and your temperament are all in harmony.

    My intent in these postings has been to highlight that these things need to be considered. When done right, the result is a "better boating experience" as they would say in current computer speak.

    Somebody on these list (I thing it is Gary Pick) mentioned that they were reading Robert Pirsig's book "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" a book that should probably be required reading. Well when all of the factors I've been talking about are right, then you experience quality sailing.
  • 05 Dec 2012 01:33
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    Reply # 1152584 on 1152396
    Anonymous member
    Edward Hooper wroteWant to say that Slieve has designed me a new rig, pushing out the 'envelope' to 36% Balance(!). 
    Edward, best be careful of that man Slieve! Next thing it will be 50% balance and all of a sudden you won't know if you are going forward or backwards :-)

    But it is good to hear that things are going well for you, a good example of man,boat, rig and intended use, all in harmony.
    Last modified: 05 Dec 2012 01:34 | Anonymous member
  • 05 Dec 2012 00:29
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    Reply # 1152539 on 1152396
    Anonymous member
    Edward Hooper wrote:A very interesting topic.
    I have just posted some photos of 'Amiina's' new split junk rig...
     
    Edward,( a very happy split-junkie )
    The rig matched to the boat, the sailor and the end use. Good to hear it, Edward.
  • 04 Dec 2012 21:52
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    Reply # 1152408 on 746824
    Anonymous member
    Right, Paul.

    My humble proposition is that many who are choosing cambered panel sails over flat-cut sails nowadays, would be happy with well-sorted flat ones. Not you. Not David Tyler or David Thatcher. 

    Me. And people with less ambition for speedy and windward sailing, wanting security and comfort without complicating the design, building, trimming and sailing.

    Cheers,
    Kurt
  • 04 Dec 2012 21:38
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    Reply # 1152396 on 746824
    Deleted user
    A very interesting topic.
    I have just posted some photos of 'Amiina's' new split junk rig in the technical forum illustrations. Don't know how to make the links (can someone show me how?).
    Want to say that Slieve has designed me a new rig, pushing out the 'envelope' to 36% Balance(!).  The sail is very powerful; 8% camber in the jibs, 6.5% camber in the mainpanels, and 5% camber in the topsail.
    'Amiina' is beautifully balanced, and goes about just like a dinghy, accelerating through the turn with no fuss and no hesitation at all.  She gybes so quietly, quite unlike even the other junks i have sailed.  With her novel Slieve designed Downhauls there is no possibility of that dreaded fan-up that Junkies fear.
    On the wind i have to reef quite early. F4 with full sail can be exciting, but with one panel down, very fast and in control.  We have been out in 20 knots of wind, gusting to 30 knots, on the Parkstone Yacht Club's anenometer.  Reefed to 3 panels, in  the gusts and again very controllable.
    Last Sunday in very light winds 'Amiina' was pointing higher and going faster than similar classed boats in a local race, despite there not being enough wind to properly 'inflate' her panels.  Nothing conclusive as the wind died and the race was abandoned.
    So far so good.  More tuning to do, but looking forward to some more positive results in the new year.
    Edward,( a very happy split-junkie )
  • 04 Dec 2012 20:04
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    Reply # 1152325 on 746824
    Anonymous member
    Nice to see that this thread has warmed up again.

    Gentleman & ladies, the point that I am trying to make is that you cannot consider the choice of junk rig (or any other rig for that mater) in isolation. There is a lot more to be considered apart from a pretty picture or whether you just like the idea of flat sails or cambered sails or whatever it is that is your pet peeve/joy/obsession.

    Different hulls behave differently and have different requirements. People use their boats in different ways and for different purposes. Some like things very simple, others can handle (or are more willing to handle) more complexity. There is no one size fits all. Some like to be in control of every detail, others are relaxed about it and yet for others, aesthetics is everything.

    So for Kurt, his relatively flat sails work and they also work for the type of hull that mehetable has. For Kurt, everything works well enough, his had his boat for along time and he has her sorted out in a way that suites him. But what is working so well and satisfactorily for Kurt, would probably not be working so well for David Tyler or Slieve.

    If I put mehetable's rig on LC (my heavy displacement double-ender) I know that I'm not going to be happy (and neither will LC). LC's hull needs more drive than mehetable's and I have less deck space to spread it over. So I have to look for a different way to achieve what I need. No matter how I may long for the simplicity of a plain flat Hasler sail, it just is not going to work for me & LC.

    So gentleman and ladies, you need to learn about Slieve's split rig and what it can do. Likewise you should study Arne's work and his sailmaking methods (if you will be making your own) ditto for fanned sail and the standard flat Hasler sail.

    Then you need to consider your hull, what sort of sailing you wish to do and also your own temperament. Only once you have considered all of the above factors can you make a rational and informed decision.
    Last modified: 04 Dec 2012 20:46 | Anonymous member
  • 04 Dec 2012 19:57
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    Reply # 1152320 on 1151860
    Anonymous member
    Bruce Weller wrote:
    Point about hull form has now really hit home. Designer, John Welsford, characterises the Pilgrim as 'like a Land Rover all set up for serious off road adventuring'. On that basis, and my plans for inshore pottering about the d'Entrecasteaux Channel, I lean maximising performance under sail.

    Bruce W
    Bruce,
    My experience of the d'Entrecasteaux channel was that there can be no wind at all, in which case camber is not beneficial, and Herr Rudolph Diesel's marvellous invention comes to the rescue; 

    or there can be too much wind, in which case excessive camber is a liability, though a little is beneficial, whether it comes through shaped panels or a fanned planform;

    and most importantly, the change between the two conditions can happen very rapidly, and so a premium should be placed on being able to reef rapidly with the least work and the least tweaking to do (that's more about getting all the lines organised well than about the planform or camber). Annie and I have both had the experience of turning the corner into the Huon River and being met by a lot more wind than was strictly necessary.

    Don't want to put you off, though, sailing in the Channel is frequently very pleasant. But when it isn't, which is not infrequent, a husky "Land Rover" kind of a boat will be a very great comfort.
  • 04 Dec 2012 19:38
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    Reply # 1152293 on 1152280
    Anonymous member
    Bruce Weller wrote: Designer, John Welsford, characterises the Pilgrim as 'like a Land Rover all set up for serious off road adventuring'. On that basis, and my plans for inshore pottering about the d'Entrecasteaux Channel, I lean maximising performance under sail.
    I suppose another question to ask yourself is, 'do I want to drive a Land Rover, souped-up or otherwise, in this area, or do I want more of a tourer?'  Much as  love John Wellsford's designs (his 'Swaggie' sends me weak at the knees), are you actually building the appropriate hull for your intended use?
  • 04 Dec 2012 19:30
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    Reply # 1152280 on 1151860
    Anonymous member
    Bruce Weller wrote:Kurt Jon is right about mystifying the newbie, however 'faint but pursuing' I am getting there.

    Point about hull form has now really hit home. Designer, John Welsford, characterises the Pilgrim as 'like a Land Rover all set up for serious off road adventuring'. On that basis, and my plans for inshore pottering about the d'Entrecasteaux Channel, I lean maximising performance under sail.

    If I read the posts to date correctly, a planned, cambered sail will be the preference in these circumstances. As a control freak I take comfort in making rather than letting the camber happen.

    I like the look of both the fanned planform and split rig but at this stage this is, on my part, an aesthetic whim. I worry about the mast distorting the camber on the 'other' tack and, quite frankly, do not yet understand the benefits of the fan structure. Is this discussed somewhere?

    More of a challenge to build and whether the two could be combined I do not know. Decisions!

    Many thanks for the contributions from all parties; a very lively topic and valuable to this writer.

    Bruce W
    Bruce, you are getting it. With a hull like the Pilgrim has I'd definitely want some camber. As to which style of rig, your options are very open any of the profiles that are under discussion here will work for you. You just need to think about how you will use the boat, what your sailing conditions are likely to be and then factor in your aesthetics.
    Last modified: 04 Dec 2012 20:05 | Anonymous member
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