S2 6.7 Junk Rig Conversion

  • 17 Aug 2021 21:56
    Reply # 10937820 on 10935694
    Arne wrote:
    David, how big are those parachute sea anchors? I have made a number of 6-sector parachutes. I use them (from the stern) to slow down my boat while hoisting sail.


    They come in a range of sizes up to about 1.4m diameter which is suitable for larger vessels. They are not a proper parachute anchor for riding out a storm at sea, which is a much more serious piece of equipment, but these smaller sizes are suitable as a drogue to stop a smaller boat for a while to rest, or reevaluate the current situation.
  • 17 Aug 2021 18:27
    Reply # 10937433 on 10935197
    David wrote:

    This is one area where the junk rig is not so good. There are a lot of hard heavy spars being the battens, yard and boom, and these are not held that rigidly against the mast, and then there is all the weight in the complete sail package which is quite considerable compared to a bermudan sail.

    The first sail we had on Footprints was really bad for banging and crashing against the mast. It just had hard bearing surfaces on the battens, yard, and boom, and with conventional parrels there was always enough slop in the system for the spars to come away slightly from the mast, and then crash back in again. This however was not a problem on the second sail that David Tyler helped me make. He had the great idea of sewing soft cell foam onto all the batten, yard and boom pockets as soft fendering. I also fitted webbing parrels which were long fore and aft and I was able to keep these very tight which kept the battens etc. hard against the mast. Even ocean crossing we had no issues with creaking and groaning and slatting. So what is probably needed is softer cushioning between the mast and sail spars, and maybe a better parrel system to hold the sail bundle closer to the mast.

    The other thing though is to stop the sail package moving from side to side and for this you really need to set up a preventer system to hold the sail package in position athwartships.

    Regarding stopping and waiting, a windvane probably would not help you a lot there because they need forward motion of the boat to produce the steering force. Even a tiller pilot would struggle in that situation unless the boat is fore reaching at a couple of knots.

    One way you could stop and rest for a while is to drop all sail and use a small parachute sea anchor from the bow. These small parachute anchors are very common now in New Zealand where fishers in small powered craft use them for stopping and fishing while in deeper water.

    Thank you for taking the time to write and help. This prompted me to check the batten parrels. I thought they were tight on the mast when the sail was completely lowered, and only loose when I had them up higher on the tapered mast. It turns out I was wrong. Several of the batten parrels were loose. I snugged them down by adjusting the rolling hitches that I have holding them in place.

    I went out in similar conditions again last night, but with somewhat smaller waves, and the 'bonking' was almost non existent when I let the sheet out. The parrels held the battens tight to the mast and the vinyl padding seemed to keep it quiet.

    While looking at the quiet sail I realized that the rolling hitches land on the mast such that the mast can 'push' the hitch and cause it to slip down the standing part of the parrel. I think over the summer my batten parrels have been working themselves loose.

    This winter I will work on a better parrel system that uses webbing and an attachment that cannot work itself loose like the rolling hitches.

    There is still creaking as the sail rotates. I wonder if I need to use more slippery rope for the YHP and Tack Parrel, or maybe coat those lines in some dry lubricant.

    Scott.

    Last modified: 17 Aug 2021 20:22 | Anonymous member
  • 17 Aug 2021 18:18
    Reply # 10937396 on 10935918
    Curtis wrote:

    "Do you have any thoughts on the creaking and groaning as the sail swings back and forth?"

    Can't recall where I read it--PJR, maybe?--but you can wrap the battens in leather. I don't know about the noise, but it would protect the finish on both battens and mast.

    Hi Curtis,

    On the yard, battens and boom I have pockets and fendering made from marine vinyl. Or at least it is what the nearby fabric store calls Marine Vinyl. Without the vinyl padding I expect there would be terrible clanging and banging. With the vinyl it is more of a 'bonk' when the other spars hit the mast.

    It seems to be doing a reasonable job of protecting the aluminum from grinding itself into dust. I may have to add some patches here and there after a few seasons but otherwise I think this is working OK. Maybe when it comes time to add patches I will also include some sort of foam padding, as suggested by David Th.

    After messing with the sail more last night I am almost sure that the creaking noises are from the YHP and the Tack Parrel rotating around the mast. I am not sure what can be done about this.

    Last modified: 18 Aug 2021 01:28 | Anonymous member
  • 17 Aug 2021 01:58
    Reply # 10935918 on 6872873

    "Do you have any thoughts on the creaking and groaning as the sail swings back and forth?"

    Can't recall where I read it--PJR, maybe?--but you can wrap the battens in leather. I don't know about the noise, but it would protect the finish on both battens and mast.

  • 16 Aug 2021 23:20
    Reply # 10935694 on 10935197
    Anonymous member (Administrator)
    David Thatcher wrote:

    One way you could stop and rest for a while is to drop all sail and use a small parachute sea anchor from the bow. These small parachute anchors are very common now in New Zealand where fishers in small powered craft use them for stopping and fishing while in deeper water.


    David, how big are those parachute sea anchors? I have made a number of 6-sector parachutes. I use them (from the stern) to slow down my boat while hoisting sail.

    Now that I think of it; this setup should work well for 'heaving to' under JR. Just set 2-3 panels and sheet in enough to keep the sail quiet, then set the sea anchor and lash the tiller to leeward. I will try this next time I am out in my Ingeborg, and then report back.

    Arne

    Last modified: 16 Aug 2021 23:26 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 16 Aug 2021 20:07
    Reply # 10935197 on 10935063
    Scott wrote:

    I would like to have some sort of strategy for stopping and waiting in bigger weather. Maybe a windvane is needed.

    Do you have any thoughts on the creaking and groaning as the sail swings back and forth?

    This is one area where the junk rig is not so good. There are a lot of hard heavy spars being the battens, yard and boom, and these are not held that rigidly against the mast, and then there is all the weight in the complete sail package which is quite considerable compared to a bermudan sail.

    The first sail we had on Footprints was really bad for banging and crashing against the mast. It just had hard bearing surfaces on the battens, yard, and boom, and with conventional parrels there was always enough slop in the system for the spars to come away slightly from the mast, and then crash back in again. This however was not a problem on the second sail that David Tyler helped me make. He had the great idea of sewing soft cell foam onto all the batten, yard and boom pockets as soft fendering. I also fitted webbing parrels which were long fore and aft and I was able to keep these very tight which kept the battens etc. hard against the mast. Even ocean crossing we had no issues with creaking and groaning and slatting. So what is probably needed is softer cushioning between the mast and sail spars, and maybe a better parrel system to hold the sail bundle closer to the mast.

    The other thing though is to stop the sail package moving from side to side and for this you really need to set up a preventer system to hold the sail package in position athwartships.

    Regarding stopping and waiting, a windvane probably would not help you a lot there because they need forward motion of the boat to produce the steering force. Even a tiller pilot would struggle in that situation unless the boat is fore reaching at a couple of knots.

    One way you could stop and rest for a while is to drop all sail and use a small parachute sea anchor from the bow. These small parachute anchors are very common now in New Zealand where fishers in small powered craft use them for stopping and fishing while in deeper water.

    Last modified: 16 Aug 2021 20:15 | Anonymous member
  • 16 Aug 2021 18:48
    Reply # 10935063 on 6872873

    Hi Arne,

    Thank you for the quick response. In these conditions with wind something like 10 knots and waves around 2 feet I probably would have been better off taking the whole sail down and just lying ahull. I would like to have some sort of strategy for stopping and waiting in bigger weather. Maybe a windvane is needed.

    Edit: I found an excellent discussion on this topic here.

    Do you have any thoughts on the creaking and groaning as the sail swings back and forth?

    Last modified: 16 Aug 2021 20:24 | Anonymous member
  • 16 Aug 2021 17:29
    Reply # 10934928 on 6872873
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Scott,
    I only ease the sheet to stop my boat for a short while, like when letting a utility craft pass.
    The long term way is to reef down to two or one panel and sheet the sail in, maybe until it stalls. Problem is that someone (or something like a windvane) is needed to keep the course. Nothing beats heaving to with a backed jib, but at least you should make the JR quite quiet this way.

    Arne


  • 16 Aug 2021 16:33
    Reply # 10934791 on 6872873

    I need some help.

    After enjoying all the things that my current boat and junk rig do better than my previous boat, I have now found one case where the South Coast 23 with a full keel and Bermudian Mast Head rig was more pleasant.

    With the jib backwinded, the main sheeted all the way in, and the tiller pushed all the way to leeward the SC23 would heave-to beautifully. The boat would stop and sit there, balanced by the wind, drifting just enough so that the uncomfortable motion from the waves disappeared. It was like magic. It was almost silent.

    A couple of days ago I tried to get my junk rigged S2 6.7 to slowly forereach for a few hours while I got some rest. I had the sheet let out some and the tiller fixed slightly to leeward. The actual course and speed were more or less what I intended. The boat would round up slightly, lose drive from the sail, fall back off the wind, and then do it all over again. I think I did the maneuver correctly.

    But the noise!

    Something, somewhere, in the rig creaks and groans when the sail swings back and forth. I think it is the tack parrel and/or the yard hauling parrel that squeak and creak and groan as they slide around the mast. 

    The battens bonking against the mast were also very loud and chaotic. 

    Both of these noises were happening the whole time, as the sail continually oscillated between being powered up and luffing. The sound was much louder down below with the entire hull vibrating. I could not really get any rest.

    I hope I can improve this behavior. I would appreciate hearing any advice anyone may have.

    Scott.

  • 15 Aug 2021 10:01
    Reply # 10932542 on 6872873
    Anonymous member (Administrator)
    Bonjour

    It is the TPS ! The link was a video showing Escoffier jumping in the sea in the deep south in a TPS to be transfered to a navy ship. Temperature should be around 0°C !! Escoffier spent a night in a life raft before being recovered by an other Vendée Globe competitor. He didn't suffer hypothermie.

    The TPS is mandatory for the Mini Transat. Not many offshore boats are unsinkable. To wear a TPS in a life raft would make it much more confortable : it keeps dry and warm : luccury in such environnement. I would have one per crew offshore. (I have mine and an other ar home).

    I didn't had to use it formally. I was so tired that I had an hallucination and decided that my keel was moving, in the middle of no-where. So I went for a survival exercise and wore the TPS all night, just in case. At day light I went for a swim in my TPS to check my keel. It was of course sound !
    Eric

       " ...there is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing as simply messing about in junk-rigged boats" 
                                                               - the Chinese Water Rat

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