S2 6.7 Junk Rig Conversion

  • 21 Nov 2019 08:47
    Reply # 8132574 on 8132472
    Annie wrote:

    To be honest, my own opinion is that if the wood structure is strong enough, all it needs over it is some light glass cloth to provide a hard and thick surface of epoxy.  However, David told me to put bi-axial cloth on the skegs (and rudders and bilgeboards) and Pete said to put it on the tabernacle.  They are the experts, so I did as I was told, but I don't understand how or why this fibreglass adds any real strength to such large pieces of wood.  I don't like using bi-axial cloth because I find it difficult completely to wet out, without there being at least some bubbles left in the matrix.

    I hope that someone with more technical expertise will chip in and enlighten us both!

    Which David said that? Fanshi's skegs and rudders would be mega stiff, without any sheathing. I will certainly have advocated thick glass sheathing on underwater surfaces, to provide maximum impact protection against the possibility of bouncing the hull and control surfaces on sharp rocks etc. Biaxial glass is quite thick, and would build up the laminate quickly and smoothly, but its fibre orientation properties are not required. Woven rovings would be just as good. (But having said that, it's much easier to persuade glass cloth to conform to sharp bends such as the leading edge of a skeg, if the fibres are at +/- 45˚).

    I would put unidirectional glass on the bilgeboards, vertically oriented, as they are designed to be relatively lightly constructed for ease of operation, and more stiffness will be a good thing. For tabernacles, I would have thought that heavy glass would be for peace of mind as much as any technical reason. For thick decks, I would put on more than a thin glass sheath, but only to protect against dropped tools and the like. For thin decks, that thicker layer of glass becomes structural as well.

    I have seen a demonstration of how 6mm plywood is made twice as strong by coating it with epoxy on both sides (at Hobart Wooden Boat Festival). Thin glass would have added more strength, but I haven't seen that demonstrated. It's a question of the relative thickness of the glass and the wood, I think. A thick piece of strong wood , as in a tabernacle, would not be further strengthened by adding epoxy and thin glass, but a thin hull of cedar strip planks absolutely depends on layers of glass on both sides, for both point impact resistance, and also overall stiffness and strength.

    Last modified: 21 Nov 2019 09:34 | Anonymous member
  • 21 Nov 2019 06:59
    Reply # 8132472 on 8127143
    Does anyone have a suggestion on when I should use fiberglass? I was planning to just use thickened epoxy to join the sides to the center section. Then I noticed that Annie put glass on the top of the side sections and also on the lower part of the middle section. It appears she let it cure before doing the final assembly.

    I do not completely understand how fiberglass and wood composites work to make stronger materials. I suspect that there should be almost zero gap between the wood pieces for it to be effective. Should I use both glass and thickened epoxy? I wonder if that will make a weaker joint compared to glass alone.


    Well, Scott, that makes two of us.  To be honest, my own opinion is that if the wood structure is strong enough, all it needs over it is some light glass cloth to provide a hard and thick surface of epoxy.  However, David told me to put bi-axial cloth on the skegs (and rudders and bilgeboards) and Pete said to put it on the tabernacle.  They are the experts, so I did as I was told, but I don't understand how or why this fibreglass adds any real strength to such large pieces of wood.  I don't like using bi-axial cloth because I find it difficult completely to wet out, without there being at least some bubbles left in the matrix.

    However, what I do know is that it is the thickened epoxy that makes the joints strong.  The glass, conceivably stiffens up the wood, which will reduce flexing, which will mean there is less stress on a filleted joint.  In theory, the glass is 100% bonded to the wood so filleting to it should work fine.  I've done this lots of times because it's often easier to glass the wood before fabricating whatever it is that you are making, than doing it after.

    I hope that someone with more technical expertise will chip in and enlighten us both!

  • 18 Nov 2019 13:46
    Reply # 8127143 on 6872873

    In case anyone is interested -- I am trying to keep my rig conversion moving along. There was some unusually cold weather here last week and I was not able to do any epoxy work. The photo attached is from two weeks ago when the temperature, according to my cooking thermometer, was just above 40 Deg F. Epoxy seemed to cure without any issues overnight using the West System fast hardener.

    Yesterday I went out in the snow and did some sanding and grinding with the angle grinder. I think I now have the closest thing to a 'good fit' between the sides and center that my skills will allow.

    I am trying to follow the JRA article and the work documented on Voyaging with Annie Hill.

    Does anyone have a suggestion on when I should use fiberglass? I was planning to just use thickened epoxy to join the sides to the center section. Then I noticed that Annie put glass on the top of the side sections and also on the lower part of the middle section. It appears she let it cure before doing the final assembly.

    I do not completely understand how fiberglass and wood composites work to make stronger materials. I suspect that there should be almost zero gap between the wood pieces for it to be effective. Should I use both glass and thickened epoxy? I wonder if that will make a weaker joint compared to glass alone.

    I am seeing some highs up above 40 in the forecast this week. I hope to keep everything inside and warm (~66 Deg F) and then move it outside to mix the epoxy, clamp it and screw it together.

    Just to be clear -- the photo showing professional quality wood work done in a proper boat shed is from Annie's blog. The photo with misaligned pieces featuring a cooler in the background is mine. I hope it is OK I borrowed your photo here, Annie. Please let me know if you want me to take it down.

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    Last modified: 18 Nov 2019 21:00 | Anonymous member
  • 20 Oct 2019 19:11
    Reply # 8067399 on 6872873

    I decided clamps are necessary. I think I got it to bend without doing any damage. I hope to get it glued together before it is too cold for the fast epoxy!


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    Last modified: 22 Oct 2019 15:50 | Anonymous member
  • 19 Oct 2019 23:49
    Reply # 8066477 on 6872873

    Thanks for the replies. I plan to use tapered pole. The boat came with a gin pole setup that makes it relatively easy to raise the original mast. I hope to re-purpose it for raising the freestanding mast.

    I decided that I would somehow find a 7" pole and then started building a Tabernacle. I learned the hard way that west system slow hardener must be used at 60 deg F or higher. I thought 50 deg F was the minimum. I was wrong!

    I used 2x dimensional lumber which is actually 1.5 inches thick. The article in JRA magazine issue 61 article recommends 2" lumber. I hope 1.5" actual is close enough for my small boat. If anyone thinks this is too lightly built please let me know.

    I am stuck now because I can't think of a way to make the sides of the tablernacle bend for the taper. Do I need to buy something like 10 big clamps to make it bend? I attached a photo.

    Any advice is appreciated as always!


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    Last modified: 20 Oct 2019 00:43 | Anonymous member
  • 26 Sep 2019 03:50
    Reply # 7901363 on 6872873
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Wouldn't the 8" tapered pole you were looking at before, cut down to 24', be better than one of the four straight tubes you are looking at now?

    I am staying away from the mathematics, but just a direct comparison between that and the 7" straight pole (no. 3 on your list that Dave refers to) it would come out slightly lighter, and with a lower c. of g.  The wall thickness is slightly less, but the outside diameter at the base is greater. And its tapered.

    Its actually not that hard to make a mast from two parts. But if you can get a tapered pole which is a little longer than you need, and at a good price - well, I wish I could be that lucky.

    The tabernacle will be an inch wider, but if that is a problem then you can make an aluminium tabernacle (from folded sheet aluminium) which may help.

    With a proper tabernacle I think raising and lowering the mast is still a practical proposition even if the weight ends up around 35 kg. If it is too heavy for you to walk up into position (it possibly would be for me, these days) there are still ways, with or without a strut (sometimes called a gin pole), to apply a little bit of mechanical advantage and get the job done. Here are some examples of raising the mast on a 22' boat, using various forms of mechanical advantage (trailer winch, block and tackle - not shown here but a small electric anchor capstan will also do the job) - and using - and not using a gin pole. 

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ve8lzTy-7JQ   no gin pole

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5WdqdlB8Nc  no gin pole

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0Sc1e3MXyA  gin pole

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l81rwc6-8SM  gin pole part 2

    Not one of these guys has a proper tabernacle. A proper tabernacle is an advantage.

    The junk rig is at a distinct disadvantage here, because of the mast position being a lot closer to the stem head where a turning block would be. If that turns out to be a problem you just have to figure out a  way around it - in one of the examples above, the person pulled from the trailer winch instead of the stem head. There's always a way.

    I think that whatever mast section you choose, provided you decide it is going to be strong enough, you can just stop worrying too much about other issues and push on, confident that you will find your own solutions to the other problems as they arise (and they will arise.)


  • 25 Sep 2019 23:32
    Reply # 7901138 on 6872873

    Hi Scott,

    my suggestion would be not to compromise on the strength. This eliminates the first and last option. The wall thickness is not too important, this requirement is more related to the ease of damaging the section and as long as it is more than about 3.5 mm thick then this should not be a problem. I would go with the third item on the list as the weight is closer to your aim than the second.

    All the best with the project.

    David.

  • 25 Sep 2019 20:12
    Reply # 7900142 on 6872873

    Next on my 'bottom up' build plan is a tabernacle. I am a little stuck on that until I can decide on the diameter of the mast. I would very much like to use a tapered pole and avoid having a two-part mast that will need assembly. I looked at the 8" pole available at a great price nearby -- to me it is clearly bigger than what I want.

    I am trying to find something that meets all the calculations and rules of thumb I have read. So far nothing meets the criteria.

    I will need to fall short of one, or more, of the goals I typed up:

    1. Mb_yield greater than 1753 kpm

    2. Wall thickness between 2.5% and 5% of the outer diameter

    3. Mass somewhat under 30kg

    If anyone is willing to look at the summary I attached and provide feedback I would appreciate it. At the moment I think going with 'too heavy' might be OK. I am not sure how literally I should take the 'between 2.5% and 5% of OD' rule.

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    Last modified: 25 Sep 2019 20:18 | Anonymous member
  • 23 Sep 2019 00:24
    Reply # 7893598 on 6872873

    Thanks to everyone who took the time to give advice on the mast.

    I now have 6 layers of 1/2" fir plywood glued into the hull. I also have 4 more layers laminated together for the top of the mast step.

    I am sure I would do it better on the second try ... But I guess I have to learn somehow. I am not terribly proud of the crooked base and I only really got the top two layers glued in the way I would like them all to be. I should have used much more epoxy, I think.

    On the other hand if needed to remove it I have no idea how I could get it out without first chipping all the wood into little pieces and then grinding the epoxy off the hull. Thinking about how difficult it would be to remove intentionally gives me some confidence that it is strong enough.

    I am pretty happy with how the top section turned out.

    It seems that considering epoxy a recurring expense like boat storage makes more sense than thinking of it as a one time expense like buying a boat.

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    Last modified: 25 Sep 2019 13:31 | Anonymous member
  • 12 Sep 2019 16:12
    Reply # 7877707 on 6872873

    My 7in mast is 36kg bare tube weight, around 40kg after completion and with rigging added. I can just about lift it, but transporting it single handed needs some wheels strapped to one end. Imagining it to be in a tabernacle, I think I could live with raising and lowering it once a season, but doing that every weekend would be a deal breaker for me. It would be sad to have to pass on a bargain, but in this case, it does seem more sensible to hold out for a 6in or 7in mast, somewhat under 30kg.

       " ...there is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing as simply messing about in junk-rigged boats" 
                                                               - the Chinese Water Rat

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