The 'Haybox' & other composting toilets

  • 04 Nov 2012 03:20
    Reply # 1125916 on 679928
    Deleted user
    Looks like we (W.Aus) have it easier than other jurisdictions. No raw sewerage zones in typical places (marinas, most inland waterways etc), and not within 500m of land or 100m from other boats or person in the water.

    But fundamentally, human waste in the sea is not pollution, once its not in close poximity to others. Its not plutonium, it is food for the ecosystem.
    Last modified: 04 Nov 2012 03:20 | Deleted user
  • 03 Nov 2012 19:59
    Reply # 1125732 on 679928
    If you have a composting toilet on board and it does it's job properly then it's going to look and smell like topsoil. I put toilet compost straight on the garden.
    Annie, I hadn't heard about that case but I'll see if I can find anything out.
  • 03 Nov 2012 19:32
    Reply # 1125725 on 679928
    From my reading, human faecal matter breaks down very quickly in salt water.  Whether this is because e.coli and its mates doesn't like a saline environment or due to bacteriophageous elements in the water - or to both - I'm not sure.  But when human faecal matter is mixed with fresh water, as with the usual Western toilet, the bacteria have a field day.

    Now obviously, in the enclosed waters of a marina, the harmful bacteria may well be introduced in quantities too great for the natural system to cope with, as happens around fish farms, but I cannot see any harm in discharging faecal matter in a tidal mooring or anchorage, where there aren't many other occupied boats, apart from the aesthetics of it all.

    As for urine, surely no-one would think it is other than harmless.

    I think that those jurisdictions that control boats' overboard discharges except (and accept for that matter!) a 'bucket and chuck it'.  Don't ask me why.  In NZ we have a rather more practical approach to the use of a marine toilet - don't empty it within 500 metres of the shoreline or aquaculture.  So the environmental aspect of using a marine toilet is muddied, so to speak, with poor biology.  On the other hand, I'm perfectly willing to be set right on this one, by someone who knows more about it.  But I have heard - and of course it may be apocryphal: maybe QLD Gary could find out more - that a yachtsman in QLD successfully defended himself against a charge of illegal discharge by convincing the judge with the science.

    Grey water is, IMHO, even less of an issue.  Don't forget we are talking anyway about tiny quantities from most boats, compared with houses.  If you use plant-based soaps, I can't see that you are doing any harm at all.  In some countries you are actively encouraged to re-cycle your grey water into your garden to grow veg!

    The third aspect is the one of plumbing and holes in the hull.  Getting rid of both of these makes sense and so some sort of on-board 'sewage system' can only be a good thing.  I have to say that for myself, who feels the pollution is over-rated and the attitude towards pollution from yachts verges on the hysterical, the draconian US rules have had the advantage of encouraging a lot of clever people to update the 'bucket and chuck it' to something acceptable to most parties and appropriate to most boats.  May their improvements continue and their profits sky-rocket!

    These, of course, are my personal prejudices backed up by carefully-edited data and I stand to be corrected.
  • 03 Nov 2012 11:46
    Reply # 1125570 on 679928
    Deleted user
    Interesting responses. 

    The composting toilet evolution has been based on improved environmental responsibility not necessarily convenience or work arounds for existing regulations. In my cruising I have come across an increasing number of jurisdictions that have legislated no dumping of any toilet wastes overboard. Haven't seen any exemptions for urine! These are now extending North America and Caribbean wide. Are there other countries that have similar regulations in affect? I know people talk about going three miles offshore to dump their waste but it is mostly talk. With responsible waste management delay of potential grey water discharge legislation is possible.

    Messing about with boats and cruising for more years than I care to remember I have seen many innovations that try to work around the no discharge laws. Likely the most succesful of these have been yacht waste management systems that allow for direct overboard discharge, no smells, and minimal operator interactions. 

    I was aboard one yacht, a few years ago, that treated all its waste for legal direct overboard discharge and desalinated all its drinking water while living semi permanently in a marina. All waste water was treated, grey and black, then the legally discharged the refined water overboard. It was quite an investment for the owner but was a positive sign of the future of onboard waste management and potable water supplies. 

    What do I use? A holding tank that does not smell and is easily discharged overboard or at a pumpout. Will I be putting in a total waste water management system? Can't afford it.

    Food for thought.
  • 03 Nov 2012 05:47
    Reply # 1124832 on 679928
    Deleted user

    Yes, I think that to try and put the argument that composting toilets on boats are a means towards saving the environment is pushing things a bit too far but there cannot help be some environmental benefits if we are not dumping our toilet waste directly into our pristine coastal waters. We recently undertook a survey of 1000 odd boat owners (moored boats) in the area where I am Harbourmaster and we found that only slightly over 50 percent of the boats had holding tanks so here in my part of the world there are a lot of boats dumping toilet waste into the shallow waters of our coastal anchorages. At least with a composting toilet we are holding that waste either for dumping on shore, or at sea away from the coast, by which time a lot of the waste is well on the way to becoming humus. Also with the Airhead we get at least a month of holding capacity whereas most holding tank systems only provide several days. Also just about every holding tank I have come across has some odour issues. I don't think that dumping urine over the side has any negative effects on the coastal environment.

    The real reason for installing the Airhead toilet in Footprints was to find a practical marine toilet which suited our cruising needs. Our chemical toilet was good but not really suited to 3 people been on board for any length of time. Because of my experiences with normal marine heads, and holding tanks, I just did not want one of those in Footprints. Not the least reason was not wanting hoses, through hulls that can leak, and a toilet which will eventually start leaking. We have had composting toilet systems  in each of the two houses we have owned over the last 18 years so a composting toilet seemed the best way to go for Footprints. We are very happy with the Airhead, the Naturehead I am sure is a good product as well, and the C Head looks to be a good lower cost option but without the holding capacity of the other two. I am sure that with a bit of creative engineering anyone could cobble together some sort of composting toilet for a boat. As well as being well put together and hopefully looking a bit attractive there will need to be a way of separating out the uring from the solids, and a ventilation fan fitted to the toilet to take any odours to the outside is also a must. I would like to think that the peat moss we use is harvested in an environmentally friendly manner but I am not sure, however we do not use very much. As has been discussed there are other alternatives to peat moss, although peat moss has the benefits that it is light weight, . It is very good at absorbing moisture, and it is good at covering the solid dumpings and masking odours.

  • 02 Nov 2012 12:59
    Reply # 1120988 on 679928
    Deleted user
    Might be missing the point Robert. Marine composting toilets arent about being environmentally responsible and no one here claims they are (any more so than a holding tank toilet or porta potti). But they are a way of avoiding using a holding tank (which can stink) and toilet plumbing (which can block) and avoid porta pottis (which its smelly contents needs to be drained every other day).

    Bucket and chuck it is a fine time honoured toilet system and works well for weekend cruisers. But when living aboard and in marinas, crowded anchorages or a small river/bay it can be a little anti social. I think the non stinky, no plumbing holding tank that is a compost toilet is a great idea.
  • 02 Nov 2012 11:14
    Reply # 1120945 on 679928
    Deleted user
    We have used various composting toilets in land based environments since the 1970's. Our more recent homemade unit is based on Joe Jenkins Humanure, http://humanurehandbook.com/, process and works quite well. While it is a a full cycle process it is not compatible with a boat unless you are close to a land base where composting the end result is possible. The process emphasizes the use of partially composted sawdust from industrial sources. 

    Without full cycle composting the AirHead or self built unit is simply making one feel environmentally responsible. If one is simply dumping urine daily and the stored fecal matter into the ocean, or worse a dumpster, then using a bucket seems to be the equivalent and much simpler technology to use on a boat.
  • 02 Nov 2012 10:29
    Reply # 1120938 on 679928
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

                                                                   Stavanger, Friday

                                          Phosphor

    When this thread was started, I thought it was a bit weird. Why all the fuss when you, while being at sea at least, will dump the waste over board anyway. Now, with the clever machine-loo shown in David Thatcher’s "Footprints", it starts to look more interesting.

    The fact is that the world will run short of phosphor for use in fertilizers in just a few decades from now, long before we run short of oil and gas. Therefore some sort of clean and efficient composting toilets will force their way back into houses and apartments, not only on the countryside, but also in the cities. Just as we today have an organised system for handling garbage, we will have to organise a system for recycling human waste and use it on the fields. Quite a challenge, but after a quick browse on the web, right now, it seems that lots of research work is being done already.

    Arne

     

  • 02 Nov 2012 01:15
    Reply # 1120766 on 1120722
    Annie Hill wrote:Sphagnum moss and peat are essentially the same thing.  They both come from bogs (wetlands) that have taken thousands of years to evolve.  The peat industry claims that it can restore the bogs after they've 'harvested' them, but like so many of these claims, this is greenwash.  The original bogs are a complex eco-system that can't be engineered anew.

    Thank you Annie, I was about to point that out but you beat me to it.

    I've been using a composting head since 1997, at first using a self made system that was just a ss bucket (with seat) and you just added saw dust after the offering was made (you just need to cover it, no more). Liquids went straight over the side or into a bottle and then over the side as circumstances permitted. The system worked very well with little or no smell, even in the Caribbean (I cruised the Caribbean for nearly three years). Incidentally, any saw dust seems to work as long as it is not from treated wood. The treatments that stops the wood from rotting also stops it from composting.

    Now however I'm giving myself a treat and have installed a Natures Head in LC. The reason for choiceing the Natures Head over the Air Head was that the seat of the Natures Head is built in. I've had to repair far to many head seats so when I saw that built in, was how it was done on the Natures Head, that was the one for me.
  • 01 Nov 2012 23:40
    Reply # 1120722 on 679928
    Sphagnum moss and peat are essentially the same thing.  They both come from bogs (wetlands) that have taken thousands of years to evolve.  The peat industry claims that it can restore the bogs after they've 'harvested' them, but like so many of these claims, this is greenwash.  The original bogs are a complex eco-system that can't be engineered anew.

    On the other hand, my research shows that coir is not only sustainable, it's also normally a waste product, difficult to dispose of in many of the countries where coconuts are a commercial product. So not only are you adding value to a product from some of the poorer nations, you are helping them overcome a problem of disposal.  That's where my money would go, especially as you should be able to buy it at garden centres (incidentally encouraging them to replace peat with coir).

    I have a few projects to deal with yet, but the composting toilet is very appealing and the fact that Barry and Meps are happy with the one they are using (in a warm climate, to boot) makes me less apprehensive :-)  My only other concern is whether I could fit one in to my diminutive boat.

    Surely, too, if it's ok for a bloke to pee directly over the side, it's ok to chuck the contents of the full bottle the same way.

    And you get rid of 2 holes in the boat.
    Last modified: 01 Nov 2012 23:42 | Anonymous member
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