Boat Buying

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  • 21 Sep 2018 22:40
    Reply # 6686726 on 6686031
    Deleted user
    Scott Yellig wrote:

    I would really like to hear about what sort of cruising are you planning to do in the Eco 6. Are you confident that you will never end up down past 90 degrees in a small-ish catamaran like this?

    Do you plan to fit a junk rig can be fitted to this design? From what I can tell Bernd Kohler did not design the Eco 6 for a junk rig. I am having a hard time guessing at where you could bury a free standing mast in that design.

    Thanks!

    The multihul versus ballasted monohull debate has gone on for decades and will I am sure go on for many more decades. I have had offshore sailing experience in both types. Twenty five years ago I did a couple of circuits of the South West Pacific islands in a Searunner 37 trimaran, and that included a single handed passage from Australia to New Zealand. I think that a well designed multihull can go anywhere a ballasted monohull can go, except perhaps the wild regions of the southern ocean. I have also owned a 31 foot Newick Val trimaran which I purchased from someone who had sailed from the US to NZ. That was also quite a rugged cruising yacht.

    I have no illusions about the capabilities of the Eco 6 catamaran. It is best suited for coastal cruising and that is what I will be doing. Do a Google search of New Zealand s Gulf, and Bay of Islands and you will see the sort of coastline we have here. Sailed carefully the boat probably could cross an ocean if someone was silly enough to try, but not for me! 

    In choosing a small boat to build I was also very tempted by the 5.7 meter L'Aviateur design which is a small go fast ballasted monohull with a drop keel. I eventually chose the catamaran because it has a lot more accomodation for almost the same length, will be a much faster sailing boat, and I do not need to worry about the complicated construction of the drop keel and ballast.  

    I would very much like to put a junk rig on the Eco 6, but so far I have not found a way to make it work. They say you can put a junk rig on just about any boat, but so far for a variety of reasons I cannot seem to come up with a viable rig placement option. So I will probably go for the gunter rig as designed for the boat which Bernd designed as a DIY rig.

    Last modified: 22 Sep 2018 00:07 | Deleted user
  • 21 Sep 2018 17:35
    Reply # 6686341 on 6686018
    Scott wrote:

    I think I found your boat on sailboatdata.com: Hunter Horizon 23. I would really like to find something with a Bal./Disp. ratio like what you have, even if the overall displacement is less. 52.29% is significantly more than what I see in used boats nearby. 

    For comparison I took at very serious look at a Precision 23 for sale here. The Bal./Disp. ratio on this boat is 34.74%. I am trying to decide if this means that I am overestimating the need for ultimate stability when sailing on the Great Lakes or if this means all the boats here were designed for staying close to shore and sailing only in reasonably calm weather.

    I wonder if my desire to have a 50% ballast ratio in a 20-ish foot boat is being 'over-boated' for the sailing I want to do. Do you have any thoughts on this?

    Thanks again.

    Weaverbird is a Hunter Duette 23 - same hull as the Horizon 23, but with a lower deck and less accommodation, as in fin keel format, it is the Sonata, a popular club racer.

    A 50% ballast ratio is rare. It needs a high standard of construction to achieve it (which is obvious when you think about it), and was only common in old-style raceboats that were narrow and had little form stability. Recent raceboats rely much more on greater beam and crew weight on the rail. 

    40% ballast ratio is a good point to aim at for a serious offshore cruiser, fit to cope with an ocean gale. Even that ballast ratio is getting rare in modern lightweight production coastal cruisers. You'll find that many of them are at 30% or less. This is fine for short coastal passages where weather forecasting is good, and you can be confident of winds less than gale force with seas to match. 

    In any case, this subject of stability and seaworthiness is a complex one, and ballast ratio is only one element of it. A good guide is the Recreational Craft Directive that all new boats sold in the European Union must comply with, and even when they make their way over to the USA, they will still have been checked for which category they belong in:

    Category B – Offshore: includes boats operating offshore with winds to 40 knots and significant seas to 13 feet.

    Category C – Inshore: is for boats operating in coastal waters and large bays and lakes with winds to Force 6, up to 27 knots, and significant seas 7 feet high.

    It's rare to find a boat in the 20 - 25ft range that will get into category B. Siblim just scrapes in, but that's a larger heavier boat than you're considering. Unless you're aiming to roam far and wide in the Great Lakes, category C will suffice. See if you can find a European import in this size range with CE category C marking, just so that you can compare its characteristics with older USA-built boats.

    Last modified: 22 Sep 2018 09:23 | Anonymous member
  • 21 Sep 2018 14:03
    Reply # 6686031 on 6677743
    Anonymous wrote:

    It seems hard to find just the right boat. As a family we have very much enjoyed our 10 meter 'Footprints'. It has given us numerous coastal holidays and even taken us off-shore. In many ways it is the perfect boat for us as a family. But as I get older and look at reducing costs in the future, and maintenance effort I feel she is bigger than I really want going into the future. 'Footprints' will be sold in the next year or so and I have begun construction of her replacement, an Eco 6 catamaran designed by Bernd Kohler. I had been looking for small boat replacement for quite a while until I stumbled on this design while cruising the internet. It seems to meet most of my requirements for a smaller cruising yacht. I had also been inspired by the book 'Travels with Miss Cindy' which recounts the tale of what is quite a marathon cruise in a 4 meter catamaran. I would have ideally liked a catamaran just a little bit longer, say 7 meters, but this design is the widest catamaran which once completed I can get down my very very long tree flanked driveway.

    Although it is quite a lot of effort to build the new little boat, I will be looking forward to a few years of low cost sailing with minimal maintenance and insurance cost. It is good to remember that the bigger and more complex a boat, the higher the costs of ownership. A boat that can be put on a trailer and taken home for maintenance has a lot going for it.

    So, looking from where I am right now, the question should probably not be 'what is the biggest boat I can afford?', but rather 'What is the smallest boat that will suit my needs?' 

    For someone who wants to live on-board and do some serious cruising Annie Hills Siblim design seems like a very good way to go. But as Annie has found, to get the right boat of this size she has had to build it herself.

    I appreciate you taking the time to send me a response. Especially while you are looking at selling one boat a building another. I am sure you are busy!

    Your post has actually brought me back around in an even bigger circle. My first sailboat was a 14 foot beach catamaran. I was obsessed with multi-hull boats for several years. Shallow draft, stability without ballast and sailing more or less 'flat' seemed like the way to go.

    Eventually I became convinced that I needed a big chunk of lead down low in the keel to ensure that the boat would right herself if somehow I was ever knocked down past 90 degrees.

    I would really like to hear about what sort of cruising are you planning to do in the Eco 6. Are you confident that you will never end up down past 90 degrees in a small-ish catamaran like this?

    Do you plan to fit a junk rig can be fitted to this design? From what I can tell Bernd Kohler did not design the Eco 6 for a junk rig. I am having a hard time guessing at where you could bury a free standing mast in that design.

    Thanks!

    Last modified: 21 Sep 2018 21:30 | Anonymous member
  • 21 Sep 2018 13:37
    Reply # 6686018 on 6677243
    Anonymous wrote:

    It's a puzzle that we all have to find an answer to. Was it the Pardeys who said "Don't be over-boated!" I have a 23ft, 1.2 tonne boat now, on the basis that I'm going to spend four summer months aboard, covering a four figure mileage. I wouldn't have a boat this size if I expected to get less use than that out of her. 

    Yet, looking at the map, it seems to be about 60 - 70 miles from Holland across to Milwaukee, about the same as crossing the English Channel from the Solent to Cherbourg, and for that kind of passage, taking the better part of 24 hours in a small boat, it's nice to be in a boat of that size or larger.

    But your displacement limit is about a ton, fully equipped, if you have to keep the towed weight under 3500 lbs. So the 18 - 20ft size range sounds about right. This size is about the most I'd want to launch and recover every time I wanted to sail.

    But it's a puzzle.

    Thank you for the thoughtful response. It is really great to get thoughts and ideas from people like yourself on the JRA forums.

    I think I found your boat on sailboatdata.com: Hunter Horizon 23. I would really like to find something with a Bal./Disp. ratio like what you have, even if the overall displacement is less. 52.29% is significantly more than what I see in used boats nearby. 

    For comparison I took at very serious look at a Precision 23 for sale here. The Bal./Disp. ratio on this boat is 34.74%. I am trying to decide if this means that I am overestimating the need for ultimate stability when sailing on the Great Lakes or if this means all the boats here were designed for staying close to shore and sailing only in reasonably calm weather.

    I wonder if my desire to have a 50% ballast ratio in a 20-ish foot boat is being 'over-boated' for the sailing I want to do. Do you have any thoughts on this?

    Thanks again.

  • 20 Sep 2018 06:45
    Reply # 6677743 on 6677159
    Deleted user

    It seems hard to find just the right boat. As a family we have very much enjoyed our 10 meter 'Footprints'. It has given us numerous coastal holidays and even taken us off-shore. In many ways it is the perfect boat for us as a family. But as I get older and look at reducing costs in the future, and maintenance effort I feel she is bigger than I really want going into the future. 'Footprints' will be sold in the next year or so and I have begun construction of her replacement, an Eco 6 catamaran designed by Bernd Kohler. I had been looking for small boat replacement for quite a while until I stumbled on this design while cruising the internet. It seems to meet most of my requirements for a smaller cruising yacht. I had also been inspired by the book 'Travels with Miss Cindy' which recounts the tale of what is quite a marathon cruise in a 4 meter catamaran. I would have ideally liked a catamaran just a little bit longer, say 7 meters, but this design is the widest catamaran which once completed I can get down my very very long tree flanked driveway.

    Although it is quite a lot of effort to build the new little boat, I will be looking forward to a few years of low cost sailing with minimal maintenance and insurance cost. It is good to remember that the bigger and more complex a boat, the higher the costs of ownership. A boat that can be put on a trailer and taken home for maintenance has a lot going for it.

    So, looking from where I am right now, the question should probably not be 'what is the biggest boat I can afford?', but rather 'What is the smallest boat that will suit my needs?' 

    For someone who wants to live on-board and do some serious cruising Annie Hills Siblim design seems like a very good way to go. But as Annie has found, to get the right boat of this size she has had to build it herself.

    Last modified: 20 Sep 2018 07:22 | Deleted user
  • 19 Sep 2018 21:32
    Reply # 6677243 on 6677159

    It's a puzzle that we all have to find an answer to. Was it the Pardeys who said "Don't be over-boated!" I have a 23ft, 1.2 tonne boat now, on the basis that I'm going to spend four summer months aboard, covering a four figure mileage. I wouldn't have a boat this size if I expected to get less use than that out of her. 

    Yet, looking at the map, it seems to be about 60 - 70 miles from Holland across to Milwaukee, about the same as crossing the English Channel from the Solent to Cherbourg, and for that kind of passage, taking the better part of 24 hours in a small boat, it's nice to be in a boat of that size or larger.

    But your displacement limit is about a ton, fully equipped, if you have to keep the towed weight under 3500 lbs. So the 18 - 20ft size range sounds about right. This size is about the most I'd want to launch and recover every time I wanted to sail.

    But it's a puzzle.

  • 19 Sep 2018 20:44
    Message # 6677159

    I seem to be a little bit stuck trying to buy my next boat. I thought spending one summer (it turned out to be two summers!) building a little box boat would help me get some idea about what I really liked about sailing and what exactly I should do next.

    A few years ago I was sure that selling the South Coast 23 and getting something that would make the most of a 30' boat slip was clearly the right thing to do. I wanted a bigger boat.

    I really enjoyed being able to do just a little bit of work every day on the PD Racer. The only reason I was able to do this was because the boat was at home and not over in the boat yard or floating at a slip. It is now clear to me that it would take me years or decades to build any sort of cruising boat at home. This is too bad because I enjoy day dreaming about most of Chris Morejohn's designs. Especially the smaller junk rigs. It would be great to build my own.

    https://hogfishdesign.wordpress.com/2017/02/05/ickramock-more-details/

    https://hogfishdesign.wordpress.com/2016/04/25/wyfy-in-antigua-sucks/

    At this moment I am convinced that I only want a 'big' boat if it is small enough to trailer home with our van. The van has a 3500 lbs max towing capacity. This means a boat smaller, by weight, than the SC23. I also need to start with at least a floating hull and a working trailer. This is the only way I will have enough time get a junk rig cruiser sailing anytime soon. 

    It seems I like to make things difficult -- I also want to have a boat that is 'big' enough that I can sail across Lake Michigan in safety and with some amount of dignity. I felt very comfortable in the SC23 out on the lake. With a sail up this boat felt very solid.

    I want something I can pull home, float off easily at the boat ramp and go in shallow water and still manage some safe big lake sailing.

    I am trying to decide if an 18 to 20 foot trailer sailer is going to give me any sense of confidence sailing from here to Milwaukee.

    Does it sound like I am just making excuses to talk myself out of each specific boat I look at? I think that might be the case.

    Last modified: 21 Sep 2018 13:37 | Anonymous member
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