Engineless Junk

  • 01 May 2017 17:02
    Reply # 4793824 on 4793559
    Scott Dufour wrote:

    On a different thread, David Tyler wrote, regarding designing in large sail areas:

    "Whenever I've felt greedy and put on "just a little more sail area", I've regretted it..."

    David Webb mentions, though, that:

    ...light weather conditions [are] the reason that we make our junk sails as large as possible, often as much as 50% larger than the Bermudan predecessor. It is much simpler to make the junk rig as large as possible and then just reef as the wind gets too much for the area set.

    So of course we must be looking at trade-offs.  I'm curious at what both Davids think is the natural stopping point versus an original Bermudian sail area, and what costs begin to outweigh the gains as we go up in size. 

    I don't think there is a natural stopping point, when adding area over and above the bermudan area. As we say quite often around here - "horses for courses". Remember that I've been used to looking at this from the point of view of offshore and ocean sailing, where others look at it from the point of view of inshore sailing use. Then there are all kinds of different boats. And so on. One size doesn't fit all.
  • 01 May 2017 15:02
    Reply # 4793659 on 4762649
    Deleted user

    Considering I am relatively new to the site, starting this thread and all of the spin off subjects has been an excellent way to find my way around JR topics and look into several different philosophies from the JR movement!

    So just as an update: I previously wrote of my decision in the end to keep the engine whilst I convert my boat and see how it goes, so the proof will be if it does indeed work when required to or if it causes more pain than it is worth. Sailing from Watchet (Somerset) to Preston via Ireland next week, I am sure I will have the opportunity to find out. It will also give me a chance to dwell on how a JR will sit with the boat. I will update the process through my 'Elizabethan 31 Conversion' thread in the 'Technical Forums.

    Thank you again folks.

  • 01 May 2017 13:46
    Reply # 4793559 on 4762649
    Deleted user

    On a different thread, David Tyler wrote, regarding designing in large sail areas:

    "Whenever I've felt greedy and put on "just a little more sail area", I've regretted it..."

    David Webb mentions, though, that:

    ...light weather conditions [are] the reason that we make our junk sails as large as possible, often as much as 50% larger than the Bermudan predecessor. It is much simpler to make the junk rig as large as possible and then just reef as the wind gets too much for the area set.

    So of course we must be looking at trade-offs.  I'm curious at what both Davids think is the natural stopping point versus an original Bermudian sail area, and what costs begin to outweigh the gains as we go up in size. 

  • 30 Apr 2017 09:04
    Reply # 4792217 on 4762649

    The bermudan sailor's current answer to going to windward in light airs is the "cruising code zero". Not pointing high, but certainly sailing with the wind forward of the beam. Well and good when you have a permanent backstay, but I wouldn't want to use one on an unstayed mast without a running backstay. Too much complication, say I, for a sail that can only be used/should only be used for less than 5% of the time spent sailing.

    Yesterday, I went out of Ravenglass for a quick sailing trial against a strong spring flood tide. I needed all 6HP of the Tohatsu plus some sail assist to get out. I would have had to wait until HW to try and sail out, and that would have given me no time outside before it was time to come back in again. At the same time, two visiting yachts came in. Bermudan-rigged, sails down and stowed, motoring in, fair wind, fair tide... I sailed back in to within a stone's throw of my mooring, just using the motor for the final pickup as there is little room to manoeuvre under sail just there. 

  • 30 Apr 2017 02:35
    Reply # 4792016 on 4762649
    Deleted user
    There are some great comments here. If we go back to the original starting point - safety when engineless - I can see some merit in having an extremely light foresail aboard a boat like Fantail. You can imagine the scenario: sunset, you're just uptide of a reef, there's a horrid slop left over from the consistent onshore NE gales that have plagued you until an hour ago and they're mixing with the backwash from the cliffs behind you, and now the wind is being outpaced by an asthmatic crab returning home with two heavy bags of shopping. A yuloh is ineffective in the nasty sea, the tide is setting you towards the rocks, and you can't get enough drive courtesy of the light wind and awful slop.

    Fantail is limited in sail size by her mast, which is raked and located to avoid conflicts in the bedroom. Although Fantail ghosts extremely well in light airs, and like Annie I find this a very pleasant sailing mode, there's no doubt that she could use more canvas in F1-2 conditions when the sea comes up.

    Arne, I found your article and experiences with this very interesting. Food for thought...

    Last modified: 30 Apr 2017 05:03 | Deleted user
  • 29 Apr 2017 22:55
    Reply # 4791921 on 4762649

    We bought a very pretty cruising chute for Badger and it worked like a charm - as long as we dropped the foresail.  We came to the conclusion that this was a bit counter-productive, and I sold it for a profit after about 6 months.

    My take on it is that the people who have successfully used light-weather drifters, et al, have done so on boats that are conservatively canvassed.  Junk rig is at its worst going to windward in light airs: I don't think it would be possible to set a jib in such a way that it would give you those extra degrees of pointing, without putting shocking compression loads on the mast.  Judging by the amount of people who motor around in F1-2 breezes, your average bermudan-rigged boat doesn't do that well either - the only ones that do, have a wardrobe of hanked-on sails. 

    Would I prefer a bermudan rigged boat in light airs?  No: I'd just wish I'd put a bigger sail on my junk, because when I get into harbour, I will have to deal with that damn great sail, and its ropes, put it all in a bag and find somewhere for the damn great bag.  And knowing my luck, I'll have managed to drop the sail in the water, so I'll have a damn great wet bag to deal with.

    I actually adore drifting along in F1-2 and find one of junk rig's most appealing aspects is the way that the sail will just hang out peacefully and waft me along in the gentlest of breezes.  But not, it must be said, at 30 degrees to the apparent wind.

    Am I putting a large enough sail on SibLim?  Probably not: I'm compromising because I don't want an overly long mast nor very long battens.

  • 29 Apr 2017 21:33
    Reply # 4791813 on 4762649
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Adding a jib to a JR

    To sort my thoughts on adding a light-wind  sail to JR, I made this little write-up.

    Arne

  • 29 Apr 2017 12:29
    Reply # 4791312 on 4762649

    PS. Just to make myself clear. I have never actually hoisted my cruising-chute. In very light airs, there  isn't enough breeze to fill it. And when there is enough breeze to fill it - well, the boat doesn't need it.

  • 29 Apr 2017 12:05
    Reply # 4791300 on 4762649

    Are we talking upwind or off -wind ghoster-sails?  Certainly, my boat will trickle along off -wind at perhaps a knot and a half when the breeze is just too light to lift the cruising-chute!  I use the engine much less than when the boat had her original Bermudas rig. I only have a light upwind jib because my boat came with a bowsprit. Although it has a strengthened luff for flying loose, I prefer to set it on a hand-tight fore stay for ease of handling.  Does it actually make a difference? I don't really know yet (though I suppose it ought to) - but I certainly wouldn't have it, except that Solitaire came ready-equipped with her bowsprit.

  • 29 Apr 2017 06:42
    Reply # 4791041 on 4762649

    Hi Bryan,

    aren't the light weather conditions the reason that we make our junk sails as large as possible, often as much as 50% larger than the Bermudan predecessor. It is much simpler to make the junk rig as large as possible and then just reef as the wind gets too much for the area set. The lower panels can be made with lighter cloth as they will be reefed when the wind gets up, they can also carry more camber so that they give more drive in the lighter conditions they are set in.

    David. 

       " ...there is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing as simply messing about in junk-rigged boats" 
                                                               - the Chinese Water Rat

                                                              Site contents © the Junk Rig Association and/or individual authors

Powered by Wild Apricot Membership Software