Downwind sailing with junk rig.

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  • 05 Oct 2010 11:37
    Reply # 438732 on 438400
    I have a plywood windvane I bought many years ago but have yet to use. It is the counter weighted type that simply has a couple of lines to the tiller. If all goes well I will get to test it next year.
  • 05 Oct 2010 08:53
    Reply # 438644 on 438400
    Annie Hill wrote:
    I read, with interest, Bob Groves article on ‘Junk Rig Heavy-weather tactics’ in Ask the Junkmaster.



    It was fascinating to see the differences in tactics that Bob and Kathy use on Easy Go as compared with what Pete and I did on Badger.


    Downwind, Easy Go takes the wind on her quarter: a tactic favoured by most conventionally-rigged yachts, on the principal that they pick up speed. Although they end up sailing more miles, the extra speed attained makes up for this. We experimented with both sailing with a quartering breeze and sailing dead downwind and found that the extra distance sailed negated the slight increase in speed. One of the things that I loved about sailing Badger was that we could always point the bow in the direction we wished to go - once we were no longer beating. Not being able to do so is one of the things that I really resent about gaff rig.


    Easy Go must generally track very well, because having seen photos of the boat, I notice that she has a self-steering gear that uses neither trim tab nor servo rudder. It is one of Bill Belcher's most basic designs. However when the breeze gets up they start pulling a drogue. I wonder if this is due to the type of self-steering gear? We experimented with several self-steering gears, ending up with a home-built one - also a Bill Belcher design - using a trim tab and vertically pivoting vane. Ironically, perhaps, this was the most effective one that we had.


    Badger, too, experienced her fair share of wind, but we never towed any sort of drogue nor felt the need to. One of her more endearing traits was that she would run happily in a serious amount of wind under bare poles. Or occasionally with the mainsail completely reefed, but sheets slacked off and she never ran at more than 5 knots in heavy weather, although in normal downwind conditions, she would happily clock up 17 miles in 3 hours for watch after watch.


    We generally rolled very little - I have happy memories of lying on the settee, reading my book with a cup of tea next to me on the floor. The wind would be F5 and above for me to think this a risky exercise. Like Easy Go, we would run under mainsail with the foresail reefed and sheeted hard in, but at wind speeds of 25 - 30 knots, (F6) Bob is already pulling a drogue. Most intriguing.


    The sailing that Bob mentions in the Caribbean is certainly very boisterous, but I have run Badger many miles in equally rough conditions in various parts of the North and South Atlantic, with complete confidence, standing in the pram hood and watching her stern lift buoyantly to large waves, with only a little lacy water coming over the rail. Never once did I wonder if we should put out a drogue. Indeed, we carried a plywood-filled tyre, complete with bridle, for about 5 years, but never used it for anything other than a fender before throwing it away.


    I think that Bob's way of sailing is undoubtedly safe and effective, but feel it must make for slow passages at times. I’m not a speed freak by any stretch of the imagination, but would feel frustrated at dragging stuff behind me while running in the Trade Winds. Horses for courses, of course, and Bob and Kathy are experienced and competent sailors, with many miles under their keel. My comments are in no way a criticism of their tactics, but more a speculation on why two almost identical boats should behave so differently. Is it the difference in keel? The fact that Easy Go’s self steering gear is less powerful? Or simply that boats have their own personalities? Running downwind for considerable distances tends to be a luxury that only ocean sailors enjoy. The more offshore miles that are sailed and recorded under junk rig, the better we will all be served when facing our first ocean crossing with our untried craft. I hope that others will contribute their experiences to this thread.

    It's good that different folks sail different boats, or we'd have nothing to talk about!
    Tystie is similar in size and weight to Badger and Easy go, but that's where the similarities end. Having a ketch rig means that the bigger, "driving" sail is forward, the smaller, "trimming" sail is aft. Downwind and upwind, the first reefs go into the mizzen, with a resultant reduction of weather helm. In 30 knots of wind, the mizzen is certainly stowed on a downwind course, and the main is reefed so as to keep the speed under 7 knots.
    Tystie's twin pendulum servo self-steering has "horizontal", power axes that are not horizontal but are tilted up at the aft end. This means that the blades tend to "trail", and self centre. They therefore keep Tystie going straight, unless the vane tells them to do otherwise. The problem on a dead run is that any rolling and yawing induce large changes in the apparent wind, as the vane sees it. A quick roll one way can change the apparent wind by 20 or 30 degrees one way, followed by a roll the other way changing it by 20 or 30 degrees the other way, and the vane is telling the servos to yaw one way, and then yaw the other way - and then the yawing itself changes the apparent wind angle. Travelling fast tends to decrease the apparent wind strength, which leads to greater changes in apparent wind direction, and increased yawing. Travelling fast in a rough sea also means that the boat is encountering wave faces at rapidly changing angles, leading to discomfort for the crew. All this adds up to having to "take my foot off the throttle" downwind, so as to keep the speed between 6 and 7 knots. At more than 7 knots, the self-steering is working extremely hard, much harder than I could manage to keep up.
    I like being at sea on passage as well as the next man, but I also like to make efficient passages, which I would define as making good progress towards my destination, but with the least wear and tear on the boat and the crew. Six and a half knots keeps me content with progress, without rattling my bones too much.
    I carry a drogue, of the "mesh of webbing" type. I've tried it out once, but have never actually needed to deploy it. A bare poles run in a gale is easily controlled by the self-steering.
  • 04 Oct 2010 23:50
    Message # 438400
    I read, with interest, Bob Groves article on ‘Junk Rig Heavy-weather tactics’ in Ask the Junkmaster.



    It was fascinating to see the differences in tactics that Bob and Kathy use on Easy Go as compared with what Pete and I did on Badger.


    Downwind, Easy Go takes the wind on her quarter: a tactic favoured by most conventionally-rigged yachts, on the principal that they pick up speed. Although they end up sailing more miles, the extra speed attained makes up for this. We experimented with both sailing with a quartering breeze and sailing dead downwind and found that the extra distance sailed negated the slight increase in speed. One of the things that I loved about sailing Badger was that we could always point the bow in the direction we wished to go - once we were no longer beating. Not being able to do so is one of the things that I really resent about gaff rig.


    Easy Go must generally track very well, because having seen photos of the boat, I notice that she has a self-steering gear that uses neither trim tab nor servo rudder. It is one of Bill Belcher's most basic designs. However when the breeze gets up they start pulling a drogue. I wonder if this is due to the type of self-steering gear? We experimented with several self-steering gears, ending up with a home-built one - also a Bill Belcher design - using a trim tab and vertically pivoting vane. Ironically, perhaps, this was the most effective one that we had.


    Badger, too, experienced her fair share of wind, but we never towed any sort of drogue nor felt the need to. One of her more endearing traits was that she would run happily in a serious amount of wind under bare poles. Or occasionally with the mainsail completely reefed, but sheets slacked off and she never ran at more than 5 knots in heavy weather, although in normal downwind conditions, she would happily clock up 17 miles in 3 hours for watch after watch.


    We generally rolled very little - I have happy memories of lying on the settee, reading my book with a cup of tea next to me on the floor. The wind would be F5 and above for me to think this a risky exercise. Like Easy Go, we would run under mainsail with the foresail reefed and sheeted hard in, but at wind speeds of 25 - 30 knots, (F6) Bob is already pulling a drogue. Most intriguing.


    The sailing that Bob mentions in the Caribbean is certainly very boisterous, but I have run Badger many miles in equally rough conditions in various parts of the North and South Atlantic, with complete confidence, standing in the pram hood and watching her stern lift buoyantly to large waves, with only a little lacy water coming over the rail. Never once did I wonder if we should put out a drogue. Indeed, we carried a plywood-filled tyre, complete with bridle, for about 5 years, but never used it for anything other than a fender before throwing it away.


    I think that Bob's way of sailing is undoubtedly safe and effective, but feel it must make for slow passages at times. I’m not a speed freak by any stretch of the imagination, but would feel frustrated at dragging stuff behind me while running in the Trade Winds. Horses for courses, of course, and Bob and Kathy are experienced and competent sailors, with many miles under their keel. My comments are in no way a criticism of their tactics, but more a speculation on why two almost identical boats should behave so differently. Is it the difference in keel? The fact that Easy Go’s self steering gear is less powerful? Or simply that boats have their own personalities? Running downwind for considerable distances tends to be a luxury that only ocean sailors enjoy. The more offshore miles that are sailed and recorded under junk rig, the better we will all be served when facing our first ocean crossing with our untried craft. I hope that others will contribute their experiences to this thread.

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