Downwind sailing with junk rig.

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  • 18 Oct 2010 20:57
    Reply # 446026 on 438400
     
     
    Bob, I can see that you are a much more careful sailor than I.  I am always happy if my boat is going 'well' and am far too lazy to study how she can go better.

    We found the foresail steadied us dead downwind as effectively as with the wind on the quarter.  We would usually have two panels up with the fan, occasionally just one and, of course in heavy conditions, it would be reefed accordingly.  As you say, a very comfortable ride, with no problem with your cup (or glass) tipping, sliding or spilling.

    I have visited the River Bourgeois, having had the extreme good fortune to be a friend of a friend of Farley Mowat.  (I had dinner with him and his wife - one of the most stimulating evenings of my life.)  It will be a grand place to have as a land base.  There is a lot of mud there: I'm sorry that you managed to find some of the rocks.  We covered our keel with epoxy and cloth and it was the chipping on the sharp edge that bothered us.  It was partly because we wanted to be able to dry out on a regular basis without worrying, that we went for the wing keel.  We also wanted to get our draught back to 4ft 6ins.

    Yes, Newfoundland is magic.  I have cruised there several times and am presently planning to join Trevor for a month or so, in NS/NL next summer.

    I don't see why a trim tab would overreact with a balanced rudder, so long as you got the proportions correct, but as you seem to be perfectly happy with Reggy, why would you bother?  If it ain't broke, don't fix it.  You obviously don't belong to the school of perpetual 'improvers'.  How relaxing that must be!  Nor, bless him, does Alan.  He loves Zebedee and apart from throwing caution to the winds and ignoring everyone who told him otherwise, by varnishing all his teak (which he has never regretted); and making new sails, I don't think he has done anything substantially to alter the boat.

    I heard from Alan, about a month ago, a rather truncated piece:

    I've met up with Labarque in Dewhurst bay and they've very kindly towed Z up the river to the interior.There is no flood tide only current against.Incredible scenery with misty mornings, amazing sunsets,and fireflies at night.There are very few locals  or tourists and no plastic debris,amazing in SE Asia!  We've seen lots of Macaques,rhinoceros, hornbills, proboscis monkeys  with their huge noses and potbellies. We saw a wild b

    Whatever the wild b was, I hope it didn't eat him!

    To be fair, Zebedee's hull didn't crack -   I think a joint worked and the epoxy/glass  sheathing split.  There are some timbers in her construction which seem a bit big for epoxy construction. There's a lot to be said for building your own!  Once, anyway.

    The Tom Thumb sounds an interesting little ship and her junk sister seems to go well.  I have had no experience with  sliding the sail back and forth, but remember some interest in the idea a few years ago.  Broaching is rarely a problem with junk rig, as long as you reef soon enough.  It is the only rig on which I have sailed, where I shake reefs out when turning to windward, but I suspect you don't do this if you have a cambered sail.
    Running under Bermudian (or gaff) main is a bit nerve-wracking, even with a preventer. This downwind thread continues ...
    Last modified: 18 Oct 2010 20:57 | Anonymous
  • 18 Oct 2010 03:14
    Reply # 445586 on 438400
    I am really enjoying reading these exchanges.  I am waiting for Alan on Zebedee to arrive at some place with an internet cafe and see what he has to say.  Then we'll have the opinions of three bluewater dorymen!  I remember Alan mentioning lying ahull on at least one occasion in the Southern Ocean.  He'd cracked the hull up near the forward maststep and I think that was also the occasion when he had to leave a couple of panels of sail up as they'd fouled and he didn't fancy working on deck in those conditions.  I remember with some amusement how he told me that he first of all wedged himself into a corner of the saloon and had a little cry, then decided that the situation called for a serious response, so he broke out the chocolate and his favourite tipple!  My only downwind sailing under the junk rig was on Minke, a single-masted sistership to my vessel, Arion,  a couple of Tom Thumbs, 24 foot, five ton steel boats that look very much like big Flickas.  I have also sailed alongside Minke for several hundred miles in Great Barrier Reef waters.  Minke had the tack line on a parrell which allowed him to slide the sail about 600mm to windward of the mast.  When I convert Arion next year I hope to increase this adjustment to about one metre if it doesn't put too much stress on the battens. We are lucky that the Tom Thumbs are brilliant downwind boats.  I have self-steered under bermudian main alone in moderate gales, and have never looked like broaching, though it makes me nervous.  I only do it when I will be running into shelter in a few hours.  I certainly wouldn't go to bed under that set-up!  My friend, Matt, seems to have no problem with rounding up on Minke either, provided he reefs the sail. first panel down in about 18 - 20 knots.  Being able to bring the centre of effort further inboard seems to be useful.  I am also contemplating flat, cambered or hinged-batten sails at the moment, and have had some exchanges with David Tyler under the topic in "Rigs Revealed" about that.  I noted Bob's specifications for yard and battens in the January newsletter with much interest as I am going the alloy route (apologies to Annie - I like timber too, but you know, the mast was just lying there!)  I noted Bob's comments about cambered sails in the newsletter  and would be interested if you folk, or any other members, have anything to say on this matter.
  • 16 Oct 2010 12:38
    Reply # 444982 on 438400
    Deleted user
    Annie: The balancing of the sails, and even the subtlety of the sail construction contribute to the way the boat behaves. Adding wider tabling to the sails, for example, made the sails pull better. This made Easy Go sail faster. Just a little fluttering on the sails made for a slower boat. 

    I read with interest your discovery of winging out the main sail and sheeting in the head sail for down wind running. We were frustrated with trying to sail downwind on the head sail as the boat continuously wanted to round up. We adopted the sheeted head sail and winged out main early on and have always found it comfortable and steady. Running just slightly off the wind to the point that the reefed and sheeted head sail has just enough wind for a steadying affect along with the power of the main pushing us along gives a tremendously smooth and roll free ride. This reduces fatigue and has made our long distance cruising a joy.

    The ferro cement keel has been extremely successful. We added a layer of epoxy fairing over the cement that has kept the outer surface in good shape. We had a little chipping on the sharp edge on the bottom but that was minimal and has not continued. We took a serious grounding at River Bourgeois during Hurricane Earl in early September that did some chipping to the bottom of the keel and ground off some of the rudder. A couple of chips in the paint on the chines from laying down at low tide were insignificant. Very little damage that we are in the process of repairing since hauling just a few days ago.

    The balanced rudder/ fin keel combination is important but I have only experience on this boat and our previous sloop. They each have their personalities. The simple self steering would only work on this combination. I was very surprised at how well it actually worked. The first Reggy was built of scrap wood. It survived two Atlantic crossings and was only replaced to stiffen up the bearing surfaces. It likely would have gone on considerably longer. I don't know if a trim tab self steering would work on our balanced rudder. I felt it might over react combined with the sensitive nature of the balanced rudder. The one we have is working well so I'll likely just stick with it.

    We have pulled the boat at St. Peters Marina on Cape Breton Island for the winter. There are a number of people here and Baddeck that remember you and ask after you. Kathy and I have a small piece of land in River Bourgeois, on the Atlantic side of the St. Peters Canal across from Isle Madame, where we plan to put up a small cabin for a land base while in Canada. Plans are to head back to Newfoundland again next summer and explore further. It is a magic place. 


  • 16 Oct 2010 10:17
    Reply # 444970 on 438400
    Bob: as you say - very interesting to compare different boats and perhaps, even more, boats that are essentially the same.  Your Easy Go is obviously a very successful interpretation of Jay Benford's design - as was Badger.  I am interested that you had the ferro keel - have you had any problems with it spitting off bits of cement when you dry out?

    I'm sure that you are correct about the way the self-steering gear interacts with the boat.  Your ship is obvious very well balanced and docile in most circumstances.  My personal feeling is that the ability to subtly balance the sail area because of the rig must affect this.

    The wing keel was a definite plus for us: it made the boat a lot more stiff without impeding her ability to tack easily.  My friend Alan, on Zebedee, seems very happy with the 'long' keel, but I alway like having something to spin around, personally.  I'm (me, myself, personally) sure that your sublimely simple self-steering gear would not work without it.

    You planning to be in Nfld for the winter?

    Annie
  • 15 Oct 2010 21:39
    Reply # 444777 on 438400
    Deleted user
    Great to see discussion on the many ways we all find to get our boats safely to the end of a passage. I particularly enjoy seeing the different ways that boats of similar design and displacement behave.

    We "discovered" the use of a long rope with the addition of a fender on the end from three separate boats, all circumnavigators, while anchored in Mindelo, Cape Verdes on three separate occasions. This is what we commonly refer to as our drogue. Easy Go travelled many miles without any sort of drag out the back and we had only one occasion to use it on our trip to Newfoundland this past summer. 

    The rope drag perceptively settles the self steering down by straightening out the line of travel and reducing the yawing caused by quartering seas. When running straight down the wind we don't experience the wave induced accidental gybes that we have had in the past. 

    I think that the drag offered by a propeller or sail drive may have a similar influence to a rope out the stern. We have not had a motor up to this point in time so I can only speculate. Badger has a skeg mounted rudder and ours is the balanced type. Our self steering is very powerful on the balanced rudder but may not perform on a skeg mounted rudder. In addition Badger's wing type keel differs significantly from Easy Go's ferro cement Benford type keel. While the boats appear similar above the water line there are significant differences beneath the water and may be the major influences in the different ways the two similar boats perform. 

    Getting to know ones boat and how it handles in changing conditions is of prime importance. 

    I'm looking forward to hearing how others use their Junk Rigs and techniques as this was an area that was a difficult learning curve for Kathy and I when we first set out.


    Last modified: 15 Oct 2010 21:39 | Deleted user
  • 09 Oct 2010 14:33
    Reply # 441358 on 438400
    Deleted user
    Paul,

    it's a fair stretch from Hull to the Southern Ocean and neither am I planning to circumnavigate Jan Mayen any time soon. Reckon I could impress those terrible motor boat people next to me by deploying a drogue in the marina though.
    On the other hand I would give Voss the preference over Moitessier, thanks for the offer!

    Last modified: 09 Oct 2010 14:34 | Deleted user
  • 08 Oct 2010 09:23
    Reply # 440663 on 440537
    Patric Albutat wrote:I never really know what to make of it since most of these reports tend to describe schooner rig configurations. Unfortunately I'm in the Badger junior class and don't have the luxury of multiple sticks and sails. Roger Taylor strongly advocates the Jordan Series Drogue, stating that "no yacht should put to sea without one". They're not exactly cheap though! Easy Go has a pre-balanced rudder, something TIN HAU lacks. Mine's just a skeg-hung job and not terribly efficient. Still haven't fitted the Atoms windvane, bit of a hassle on a double ender (Annie almost put me off it but haven't decided yet).

    Patrick, I totally agree with Roger on the Jordan Series Drogue. No yacht should go to sea without one. I have yet to use mine in earnest but I can tell you when I deployed it (for testing and educational purposes)  in a nice and very solid force 8 in the Southern Ocean it worked as advertised. You can easily make one yourself. The nylon rope is exspensive but you will still build it for about a third of the cost of a bought one plus a couple of weekends labour. If you need instructions etc... let me know.
  • 08 Oct 2010 06:51
    Reply # 440641 on 440537
    Patric Albutat wrote:I never really know what to make of it since most of these reports tend to describe schooner rig configurations. Unfortunately I'm in the Badger junior class and don't have the luxury of multiple sticks and sails. Roger Taylor strongly advocates the Jordan Series Drogue, stating that "no yacht should put to sea without one". They're not exactly cheap though! Easy Go has a pre-balanced rudder, something TIN HAU lacks. Mine's just a skeg-hung job and not terribly efficient. Still haven't fitted the Atoms windvane, bit of a hassle on a double ender (Annie almost put me off it but haven't decided yet).
    Patric, If you have a skeg-hung rudder, with an Atoms vane gear driving it, you have a very good setup. No need to worry about steering down wind at all.
  • 07 Oct 2010 20:46
    Reply # 440537 on 438400
    Deleted user
    I never really know what to make of it since most of these reports tend to describe schooner rig configurations. Unfortunately I'm in the Badger junior class and don't have the luxury of multiple sticks and sails. Roger Taylor strongly advocates the Jordan Series Drogue, stating that "no yacht should put to sea without one". They're not exactly cheap though! Easy Go has a pre-balanced rudder, something TIN HAU lacks. Mine's just a skeg-hung job and not terribly efficient. Still haven't fitted the Atoms windvane, bit of a hassle on a double ender (Annie almost put me off it but haven't decided yet).
  • 07 Oct 2010 22:27
    Reply # 440482 on 438732
    Gary Pick wrote:I have a plywood windvane I bought many years ago but have yet to use. It is the counter weighted type that simply has a couple of lines to the tiller. If all goes well I will get to test it next year.
    Looking at the photo of your boat, Gary, I see she has a transom-hung spade rudder, with a shallow skeg. This configuration doesn't have much built-in directional stability, and can be difficult to manage with a vane. However, a balanced spade rudder is even worse - Blondie Hasler's Kingfisher 20 "Pilmer" was like that, and we tried all ways to get her to track straight. A Hasler SP pendulum gear wouldn't do it, until we'd done a lot of tweaking.
    Good luck, when you get to use your vane gear, but my feeling is that you'll need to find a way to build some "damping" into the system. John Letcher's book is quite informative.
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