A vane gear for Weaverbird

  • 13 Sep 2017 21:20
    Reply # 5147351 on 4048415

    Richard, I think you have misunderstood. All those photos appear to show the vane axis pointing directly fore and aft.

    But you don't sail directly into the wind, do you?

    Consider the least difficult scenario to understand. You are on a beam reach, and the vane axis is pointing directly athwartships. Now a wave rolls underneath the boat. On the face of the wave, she rolls to leeward, and as it passes, she rolls to windward. And so the angle of roll needs to be either added or subtracted from the angle of inclination when the boat is level. In one sense, they reinforce each other and apply more negative feedback. In the other sense, they tend to cancel each other. If the angle of inclination is zero to start with, then a roll to windward must result in an overall negative angle of inclination - and the vane becomes unstable. If there is some positive angle of incidence on the the vane axis, then the vane will only become unstable when this angle is surpassed by the angle of roll to windward. This is the simplest case. On other points of sail, the same principle applies, but we would need to get tangled up in some trigonometry to work out the actual angles.

    This, in the end, is why vanes with a horizontal axis are unsatisfactory.  They will only work when they have an appreciable load to work against, so that they do not deflect too far during a roll to windward. And this is one of the reasons why they are totally unsatisfactory for driving a well balanced control surface. The Hebridean vane gear is perhaps more prone to this instability, but it will show up in all cases where there is a horizontal vane axis, to a greater or lesser extent. 

    The Hebridean principle has one great  advantage over other servo pendulum gear geometries: that it greatly simplifies the primary linkage between vane and servo, and greatly simplifies the construction of the whole vane gear. It's true that the inclination of the power axis adds more negative feedback as the servo swings over, but all other pendulum gears do this anyway, by the way that the primary linkage is arranged relative to the power axis.

  • 13 Sep 2017 20:00
    Reply # 5139060 on 5125689
    Richard Brooksby wrote:
    David Tyler wrote:

    I've learned something more over the past few days: that a vane gear using the Hebridean principle must always be working so as to counteract weather helm - or must be fooled into thinking that it is.

    If there is weather helm, the servo swings out to weather, and so the the vane turret tilts to leeward, thus putting some positive inclination onto the vane axis.

    If there is lee helm, the servo swings to leeward and the vane turret tilts to windward, thus putting some negative inclination onto the vane axis, resulting in unstable steering.

    Are you sure this is true of the original Hebridean design? I've not noticed it on mine, but I do usually have sine weather helm. John Fleming claims the Hebridean wants a neutral helm.

    Right, here are some pictures of the vane turret on my Hebridean in roughly central position and pulled over. https://www.flickr.com/photos/rptb1/shares/0g6BHX. Note the turret tilts forward when the trunk is rotated in either direction.

    I may have misunderstood you completely!

    In haste — setting sail!

  • 13 Sep 2017 18:24
    Reply # 5128623 on 4048415

    In reply, I can only quote the late lamented Professor C E M Joad:

    "It all depends..."

    ... on the amount of balance on the servo blade

    ... on the amount of balance on the rudder

    ... whether there is a skeg

    And doubtless some other variables. I don't suppose there's a simple answer to this. I do know that whenever my vane gets its axis "low end forward", it gets unstable and goes to its fullest travel in either direction.

    John Fleming probably advocates a neutral helm because the angle through which the servo will swing is much smaller than for a horizontal axis pendulum, and so the ability to apply large quantities of weather helm is not there.

    Last modified: 13 Sep 2017 18:27 | Anonymous member
  • 13 Sep 2017 18:05
    Reply # 5127013 on 4878186
    Arne Kverneland wrote:

    David,

    So, in other words, the windvane gets positive feedback with a lee helm? I start to wonder if it would be better to separate the vane turret from the servo blade. With the vane turret fitted in the traditional way, fixed to the boat, you could still use the same servo blade with the 45° power axis. This axis will always produce negative feedback, and if you in addition tilt the vane axis a bit aft (preferably with an adjustable tilt angle), you should have a more stable system. That tilted power axis on the servo blade still appears to be a very good idea to me.

    Arne

    I have wondered the same thing, and yet John Fleming says the connection is important to the negative feedback. I suspect the angle of the “extension” (that holds the vane) to the pivot attachment is quite critical to this. I'll take a closer look when in aboard.

    I do like the look of David's design. I've spent many hours thinking about how to simplify the Hebridean (especially the linkage) and I think the ideas are great. I was thinking about low friction bicycle brake cables, but I'm not sure how long these would work at sea. The drum-and-cable approach is very neat.

     
  • 13 Sep 2017 17:52
    Reply # 5125689 on 4876186
    David Tyler wrote:

    I've learned something more over the past few days: that a vane gear using the Hebridean principle must always be working so as to counteract weather helm - or must be fooled into thinking that it is.

    If there is weather helm, the servo swings out to weather, and so the the vane turret tilts to leeward, thus putting some positive inclination onto the vane axis.

    If there is lee helm, the servo swings to leeward and the vane turret tilts to windward, thus putting some negative inclination onto the vane axis, resulting in unstable steering.

    Are you sure this is true of the original Hebridean design? I've not noticed it on mine, but I do usually have sine weather helm. John Fleming claims the Hebridean wants a neutral helm.

    Weaverbird's helm is neutral, when sailing to windward in light conditions. Sometimes there is lee helm, and the steering goes haywire if I have the steering lines to the tiller at equal length. But if I shorten the lee side line, this induces a kind of artificial weather helm, and the steering becomes stable again.

    I have a chain across my tiller that sits on a pin, allowing me to compensate for the helm while keeping the vane central. The pin often ends up at the mirror image position on the chain after a tack. See https://flic.kr/p/xR1Tuj

  • 03 Jun 2017 15:07
    Reply # 4878328 on 4048415

    Arne,

    Then I would be back to almost exactly the vane gears that I designed for Fantail and Tystie. Both were OK, though Bryan has reported problems with Fantail's gear that I cannot diagnose from a distance. The 45° power axis brings with it a greatly reduced arc of operation, which the vane mounting on this new gear has improved again, so I wouldn't want to take a step backwards.

    No, this gear has the potential to be better than either, but like all new pieces of machinery, there are things to be learned as I go along, and things to optimise. 

    To alter the gear as you suggest would mean a complete redesign and rebuild. Before doing that, a simple modification of the vane turret is the obvious first step and could be all that's needed.

    As I say, this is an issue on a boat with a light and neutral helm, and almost certainly does not occur on most boats.

    Last modified: 03 Jun 2017 15:11 | Anonymous member
  • 03 Jun 2017 11:42
    Reply # 4878186 on 4048415
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    David,

    So, in other words, the windvane gets positive feedback with a lee helm? I start to wonder if it would be better to separate the vane turret from the servo blade. With the vane turret fitted in the traditional way, fixed to the boat, you could still use the same servo blade with the 45° power axis. This axis will always produce negative feedback, and if you in addition tilt the vane axis a bit aft (preferably with an adjustable tilt angle), you should have a more stable system. That tilted power axis on the servo blade still appears to be a very good idea to me.

    Arne


  • 02 Jun 2017 10:01
    Reply # 4876186 on 4048415

    I've learned something more over the past few days: that a vane gear using the Hebridean principle must always be working so as to counteract weather helm - or must be fooled into thinking that it is.

    If there is weather helm, the servo swings out to weather, and so the the vane turret tilts to leeward, thus putting some positive inclination onto the vane axis.

    If there is lee helm, the servo swings to leeward and the vane turret tilts to windward, thus putting some negative inclination onto the vane axis, resulting in unstable steering.

    Weaverbird's helm is neutral, when sailing to windward in light conditions. Sometimes there is lee helm, and the steering goes haywire if I have the steering lines to the tiller at equal length. But if I shorten the lee side line, this induces a kind of artificial weather helm, and the steering becomes stable again.

    Is there a better solution? I'm beginning to think that I should rework the vane turret to add some positive inclination to the vane axis under all points of sail, as servo pendulum gears usually have.

    That said, when the gear is working well, it is certainly giving me the best vane steering that I've ever experienced, on a boat type that has always been the most difficult to steer with a vane gear - that is, with a partially balanced spade rudder.

  • 26 May 2017 16:14
    Reply # 4854352 on 4048415
    Deleted user

    Ah.  That actually makes perfect sense. I was completely leaving effects of acceleration out of the equation.  On the ethereal frictionless plane, the gravitational acceleration and inclination would exactly cancel each other out, I believe, and the vane would not move one inch. The ethereal apparent wind would change, though - another factor I completely didn't think about.  Once all those dynamic effects come into play, it's pretty clear the solution is to become engineers and not physicists:  do what David's doing and make one. Trial it, tweak it.

    And after studying the photos in your album, like Arne, I finally get how the thing works.  That was not an intuitive process.  I had to make a few small models out of crudely folded paper.  I have tough time picturing movement in three directions: the z-axis effects on the other two overwhelms my bio-neurolical video graphics card's capabilities.

    Last modified: 26 May 2017 16:14 | Deleted user
  • 25 May 2017 22:02
    Reply # 4853178 on 4853072
    Scott Dufour wrote:

    David,

    In heavy following seas, surely the boat inclines more than 4 degrees fore and aft.  Is this not the inclination you're concerned about?

    This is an exceedingly complex dynamic  situation. As a wave passes, there are at least pitch, roll, yaw, heave and acceleration affecting the apparent wind that the vane sees. So there's not going to be one correct angle of inclination of the vane axis. We can say that when on the face of a wave, the inclination will be increased, but acceleration will have decreased the apparent wind speed, and who knows what the roll is doing? And, of course, on the back of a wave, the reverse is true - inclination probably going negative and deceleration probably increasing the apparent wind. This, travelling fast in a seaway, is the most taxing situation for a vane gear. This is where the servo pendulum scores, as it has inbuilt yaw damping which tends to ignore the vague and variable signals the the vane is sending, in the light apparent wind that is constantly changing due to yaw and roll. The strongly trailing action of the Hebridean is the most effective of all in this. So what we're asking from the vane is that it shouldn't send strong, false signals to the pendulum, tending to override the yaw damping action. And the best way to do this is with somewhat more inclination of the vane axis than is necessary on other points of sail. Does that make any sense?
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