Bruce Roberts 345

  • 31 May 2016 23:20
    Reply # 4049853 on 4044844
    Deleted user

    Hi again, and thank you for all the comments and ideas. Keep considering still and putting the plan together:) Have to admit I have been thinking very much the way David does and thank you for sharing your experiences. Especially for putting the ketch idea on the table. I thought it will not fit to the layout at all but it actually really does. I'll keep the idea in mind.

    What I also did I started to read the "Practical Junk Rig" again. I've red it about a year ago and got a ton of good ideas from it. Also loved the "Voyaging On a Small Income" Annie Hill has wrote. Another book full of good reading was the "Design And Build Your Own Junk Rig" even though it seems there are newer sail designs dominating nowadays. Need to say reading books is a good thing to understand what you say, but putting a sail plan on paper and doing all those calculations needed is still too much for me. Will definitely need help there.  Let's see how it goes!

    Last modified: 31 May 2016 23:31 | Deleted user
  • 29 May 2016 07:44
    Reply # 4045561 on 4044844

    Hi Hard,

    Unlike Arne and Annie, I think this may be a good way to get yourself a junk-rigged voyaging boat. Easier than starting from a pile of aluminium plates and a welding kit, and easier than having to undo, change and correct all the unsatisfactory things you would probably find in a secondhand boat. This appears to be the hull and deck of a good boat, with most of the heavy, dirty work done, and just waiting for someone to build furniture (which can be simple and open-plan, to save time and money) and rig her.

    I owned a boat of this size for 16 years and many ocean miles, and I think that 34- 35ft is the right size when you don't know whether you will be sailing alone or as half of a couple.  A full-time singlehander ought to choose a smaller boat, maybe around 30ft. A couple would need to live simply with not too many possessions; it can be done, if they are good enough friends and can live in a small space.

    I also sailed her under a single sail some of the time, and a ketch rig the rest of the time, so I can comment on that as well. A big single sail of around 600sq ft can be handled by a young, fit, strong sailor, but I would discourage you on the grounds that placed as you are, you would find it a very big challenge to build a rig that is light enough and strong enough, from materials that are likely to be available to you, and obtaining a suitable mast will be a big challenge also. Making a 600 sq ft sail shouldn't be a first project, you need to learn on smaller sails.

    I think you should put a two masted rig onto this boat. Looking at the photos, a schooner with a large mainsail seems to present difficulties, with the mainmast being too close to the sloping windows of the raised coachroof. I would guess that a rig with two equal sails might work, but a ketch with a mizzen of say 40% of the total area would be easier to arrange. That would probably put the after mast where you've indicated on your 'schooner' mast position photo, the mainsail would be 360 sq ft and the mizzen would be 240 sq ft - or something close to those figures.

    When I was building my last-but-one boat, a four year project, I kept a sailing dinghy that I could take out for an hour or two, just to remind myself that the sea was still there waiting for me, and to get the dust and fumes of building out of my lungs. I recommend taking a little time out like this, occasionally - but not too often. You need to remain very focussed, to make a success of a project of this size. You will have time for just three things in your life - boatbuilding, boatbuilding and boatbuilding.

    But to get down to the details, I have to say to you what we usually say to all those who are getting into junk rig with no previous experience - you will need to buy a copy of "Practical Junk Rig" by Blondie Hasler and Jock McLeod, to gain a good basic understanding of the process of designing and building a rig. It can be found on Amazon.

    Last modified: 29 May 2016 11:07 | Anonymous member
  • 29 May 2016 00:17
    Reply # 4045370 on 4044844
    Hi Hard

    As someone who is in the middle of building a boat myself, I thought I might chip in, too.

    I notice that you live in Tallinn - I would guess that there aren't too many second-hand boats in your part of the world.  However, I agree with Arne, the only reasons to build a boat are (a) because you want to and (b) because you can't find anything that suits you on the second hand market.

    1. If you can't do the work yourself, it is going to cost you a lot.  You will have to keep working in your job and, effectively, you need to work two hours for every hour of someone else's labour. 

    2.  If you are building a boat, believe me, you won't have time to go sailing with your friends.  If you go sailing, you won't be building and the project will drag on and on and on.  This is quite a big boat and i reckon it will take you the best part of three years working full time on her.  Even keeping it simple, you have extra work because it is an alloy boat.  You have to build a complete interior and in a metal boat, this needs to be insulated, to reduce condensation if nothing else.  By simple do you mean no engine?  No electronics? No built-in water tanks?  No refrigeration?  Simple means different things to different people.

    As to rigging this boat as a junk.  Most definitely it will work: there are very few boats that aren't happy with a junk rig.  You could get away with a sloop rig, like on Footprints, but you might find a schooner more versatile.  Badger is a similar length to your boat: Paradox has a similar deck layout.  Why not look at Members' boats or the Google photos of different junks to get some inspiration?  (The latter is an absolutely wonderful way of wasting an hour or so!)

    Junk rig, especially as original build, can be fantastically cheap compared with a Bermudian rig.  Most junkies are happy to take on the relatively simple mast and sail build, but the complexities of a Bermudian rig would be more than I would want to handle.  Even if I were to make the mast, there are still expensive fittings to put on (eg spreader bases) and instead of one or two simple sails, there are several to be made from expensive sail cloth with heaps of reinforcing that can't be done on your average home sewing machine.  And then there's the cost of the wire, the bottle screws, etc, etc.

    We actually have two other members based in Tallinn.  Oscar has been quiet for a while - no doubt very busy - but he has a very good grasp of the technical side of junk rig and might well be very happy to come and discuss your ideas.

    Whatever you decide, I wish you the very best of luck.

  • 28 May 2016 21:50
    Reply # 4045172 on 4044844
    Deleted user
    Hey, and thank you for reaching out!

    1. I'm not but, but there are some, closeby. It will cost though, but how many weeks it could take to complete those existing seals. There is more to build for sure - railings, cockpit lockers, the doghouse, many deck fittings etc.
    2. Have been sailing with my Nordick Folkboat for five years and have plenty of friends that would keep me sailing while building. Wouldn't have a chance to go anywhere during at least 3 years from now anyways. I believe she would be seaworthy in 3 years for sure. I've a plan to build it as cheap and simple as possible. No mahogany etc. It can't be that hard:)

    That's why I am asking about the sail plan - to think few steps ahead and to make those calculations in terms of criterias and money. Junk rig may be relatively cheep, but eventually it's still rather valid amount. It would make sense to know if the boat will do fine under junk rig, if there is 1 or 2 sails, what's the approximate sail area and to get that understanding if I am capable of building it. There are not too many people in Estonia that are familiar enough with junk rig to build one.

    And again all those hard questions and doubts are more than welcome to help tweaking my plan!

  • 28 May 2016 19:44
    Reply # 4045075 on 4044844
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    I guess there are two questions you should ask yourself before you think of the rig:

    1: Am I a competent aluminium welder? (there appeared to be a lot left to be done and re-done)

    2: Do I want to spend most of my spare time for the next 3 – 5 years with hard work on boatbuilding, before the first sail?

    Frankly, if boatbuilding is what you like, then go ahead. However, if you really want to go sailing, then I suggest you rather try to find a second-hand boat and do minor upgrades before taking off. Converting the rig is quite an undertaking in itself.

    Good luck!

    Arne

    PS: If you haven’t built a boat before, then I suggest you build a dinghy or tender, (in aluminium?), to give you an idea of what it takes to do it.

     

  • 28 May 2016 13:13
    Message # 4044844
    Deleted user
    Hey folks, I've had a dream of taking time off and going to high seas, shorthanded. At the moment I am highly considering buying an unfinished aluminum Bruce Roberts 345 for that purpose. And going on building her at my "backyard". 

    https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B_zztqNZLyWLQjVZTUdHV01PRnM

    I've a big favor to ask - could someone please take a look of the pictures taken and the original plans to give me your pros and cons. As a junk should it be a sloop, schooner or ketch? I think for a sloop it may be too big. Schooner most probably? Could someone maybe point out a sail plan that would fit? Or please tell me if that body shape is not the best option at all for a junk rig, maybe because of some stability or performance issues etc? 

    How masts could be arranged: sloopschooner

    I haven't been able to find any similar boats with junk rig to compare. And I don't feel competent at all planning the rig myself... Any help would be really appreciated to help making that decision now and going ahead...

     
    Last modified: 28 May 2016 19:42 | Deleted user
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