The Bermudan rig is crazy - Official!

  • 24 Oct 2014 08:18
    Reply # 3132790 on 3132556
    Anonymous member (Administrator)
    Slieve McGalliard wrote:

    In a post on the Jester Challenge group today one person wrote -

    Incidentally, when my step-dad ended up in Southampton General Hospital with a mild heart attack, and he explained it had happened whilst sailing, the Cardiologists grinned and said 'You know, half the heart attacks we get in here are from middle-aged men winding winches in the Solent....."

    I wonder if that is another reason for not sailing a Bermudan rig?

    Cheers,  Slieve.


    ... then maybe yachts fitted with the typical winch farm cockpits, should rather be equipped with a hearth-starter than with buoyancy aids :-) ?
  • 23 Oct 2014 23:12
    Reply # 3132556 on 3121186

    In a post on the Jester Challenge group today one person wrote -

    Incidentally, when my step-dad ended up in Southampton General Hospital with a mild heart attack, and he explained it had happened whilst sailing, the Cardiologists grinned and said 'You know, half the heart attacks we get in here are from middle-aged men winding winches in the Solent....."

    I wonder if that is another reason for not sailing a Bermudan rig?

    Cheers,  Slieve.

  • 23 Oct 2014 22:30
    Reply # 3132515 on 3121186
    Deleted user

    You are right, Annie, we are lucky to have unstayed masts, with all the advantages and economy entailed. I've been thinking about this quite a lot lately, since the passing of Tom Colvin.

    As most of us probably know, Tom always espoused 'lightly stayed' masts for his Chinese rigs, and believed this was the way the Chinese did it. Given that he had experience, as a sailor of a working sailing ship in south China in the first half of the last Century, of sailing working junks, he should know.

    It is fairly well-known that junks around Guangdong have used lightly stayed (shrouded?) rigs for at least a couple of centuries, possibly more. Many believe this was an adoption of Western techniques after European ships became regular visitors from the 17th Century onwards. The Chinese did not change the way they did things lightly, but knew enough to recognise and use a good thing when they saw one. It is equally possible that they developed this refinement independently, but given it's absence outside of areas influenced by European ships, probably improbable.

    Like Tom, those junks seemed to use fairly lightly stayed masts with little tension in them. Tom believed stays on the Chinese rig should not be used to support the mast, but simply to contain the 'whip effect' in a seaway, particularly with metal masts subject to fatigue failure. Given that both Ilala in the 1966 OSTAR, and Lexia in the 2013 OSTAR lost their masts in very little wind but while rolling around in a sloppy sea after a blow, there appears to be evidence to support this theory.

    If people don't like permanent shrouds either side of the mast, it is possible to have the same effect by running the halyard back to the cockpit via a block on the rail, with perhaps the spare halyard running to the opposite rail. 

    Any opinions?


    Edit: For an interesting insight into this issue see section 10.5 of Cutting the Dragon's Tail, by David and Lynda Chidell, who built and sailed one of Tom's designs, and stayed all three masts.

    Last modified: 23 Oct 2014 23:13 | Deleted user
  • 23 Oct 2014 21:58
    Reply # 3132501 on 3121186
    Deleted user

    I second that.


  • 23 Oct 2014 21:30
    Reply # 3132489 on 3122042
    Annie Hill wrote:

    And you know what: in a few years, everyone will be coming up to us and lecturing us about how lucky we are to have an unstayed rig and that they knew all along that we were on the right track, but of course, we should make our rigs more complicated and expensive.  Then we'd have a proper boat.  (Apologies to those who are fans of wingsails!)

    I think someone should write a letter to the Editor about the JRA being 35 years old and that some of us have been aware of the folly of pointy sails for a long time!

     


    Go on Annie - write a letter to the Editors,  you know that you can well argue the case and they might even listen!
  • 23 Oct 2014 15:17
    Reply # 3131864 on 3121186
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    John, I am sure that staysails/jibs adds to the performance of a rig, but at some cost.

    In the racing world, it is all about performance gain versus handicap penalty. I looked up the America’s Cup on the web, and it appeared that they use staysails of different size, depending on wind strength and apparent wind direction. More area, more power and speed, as easy as that. I should like to know if they kept that little jib even in stronger winds. I don’t know the rules of the AC boats. If there is some sort of area restriction on the mainsail (wing) or mast height, then it is natural to have staysails ready in some conditions. With the mast being stayed anyway, it would be a pity not to make use of them. Racing is after all about winning, not about shorthanded comfortable sailing.

    Cruising is a different game. On a cruising boat there is no penalty on sail area, so one can just as well be generous when making a junk rig. My present boat, Frøken Sørensen has 20sqm sail on 750kg displacement (0 ballast). On my 36 outings this summer, I bet I kept her sail reefed at least half of the time, even though it was not a very windy summer. In Hasler/McLeod’s Practical Junk Rig lightweight ghosters are being described. As long as they are taken down as soon as the wind picks up, they may add performance, fun and something to do for the crew. However, using a jib on a JR as a general working sail over a wider span of winds, seems to me to add too much cost or complexity in the rigging, and also  in the handling. This was just what I wanted to avoid when ‘going junk’, back in 1990.

    But it’s a free world, so I suggest you try adding a jib and  then report back to us about your experience. I may well be wrong.

    Cheers, Arne

     

    Last modified: 24 Oct 2014 08:06 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 23 Oct 2014 11:20
    Reply # 3131778 on 3121186
    Arne, It's the soft jib used in front of the wing sail in America's Cup lead me wonder why such a super hightech wing still need a Bermudan jib to improve pointing. If the wing was good enough they won't go into trouble of using a traditional jib. Regarding to tensioning the forestay can a running backstay solve the problem?
    Last modified: 23 Oct 2014 13:54 | Anonymous member
  • 22 Oct 2014 22:49
    Reply # 3131490 on 3121186
    Deleted user

    Well, I turned up all sorts of interesting stuff during the course of researching Part 1 of History. That one is from the Chater Collection - there's a lovely 'Catalogue' of the collection - although it's actually a very readable history as well.

    Runs to between £2,000 - £4,000 a copy, but available to read online here - I also have a pdf of it if anyone (like me) doesn't like reading on-line.


    Edit: HEALTH WARNING - if you like to believe that British influence in the world was all to the good, don't read this book!

    Last modified: 22 Oct 2014 22:52 | Deleted user
  • 22 Oct 2014 21:58
    Reply # 3131459 on 3130801
    Chris Gallienne wrote:
    Gary King wrote:

    Since we're on the subject of Bermudan bashing, 

    Have a care!

    This is what can happen when uppity junkies start abusing their betters!



    My dear Chris - where do you find all these wonderful pictures and other junk (in the nicest sense of the word, of course!!)?

  • 22 Oct 2014 07:34
    Reply # 3131045 on 3121186
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    John,
    I have to disagree with you there. My experience is that a fairly plain JR (no double wing section etc), but with proper camber added (shown here and here), will match cruising Bermuda-rigged boats to windward. I have overtaken many enough other boats in my Frøken Sørensen this summer and we regularly tack through 90° if seastate allows it. I cannot expect closer tacking with the centreboard being just a flat plate. Don’t forget; to get a close-winded vessel, both the hull, the keel and the rig must be efficient.

    A jib could help, but puts quite unhealthy compression loads on the masts. You can get away with it with either making a stayed rig or by using a very small jib, but I surely would not bother.

    Cheers, Arne

     

       " ...there is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing as simply messing about in junk-rigged boats" 
                                                               - the Chinese Water Rat

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