PBO Junk Rig article

  • 18 Aug 2014 17:51
    Reply # 3077474 on 3045049
    Deleted user

    Edward

    Yes this is the one task I need to complete - telltails. I am always sailing China Girl too close to the wind - every now and then I remember and ease off a little and she picks up immediately. Old BR habits die hard, it seems.

  • 18 Aug 2014 17:48
    Reply # 3077468 on 3076293
    Deleted user
    Annie Hill wrote:-  ..........

    And. prejudiced as I am, I think Amiina is a lot prettier!!

    e.
    Thank you Annie, so do I !
  • 18 Aug 2014 17:42
    Reply # 3077465 on 3076146
    Deleted user
    Chris Gallienne wrote:

    Out of interest, who sailed Amiina during the upwind tests? It is common experience that a junk rig can be made to sail closer to the wind than a bermudan rig, but will go a lot slower - best speed is usually achieved by freeing the sail off  a bit. The fact that the author says that Amiina pointed higher but went slower seems to indicate that this might have been the case. Presumably this is also true of a split rig? If Edward sailed her I guess this was not an issue.

    It was mostly myself, although David Harding did have a little go himself.  Yes I do know that JR's have to be sailed a bit freer.  I am conducting trials with 'Gentry' tufts on the jib panels, and tell tales on the main leaches.  I have no problems with keeping the Leach tell tales flying well, but currently the Gentry tufts are very sensitive.  To get the Leeward tufts flying horizontal and steady is a very fine line, and yes, then Amiina is surprisingly close winded.  I find I am constantly having to sail closer to the wind than I feel is best.  Hence our decision to try and put more camber, and a greater sheeting angle into the jibs this winter.  As always it is a 'fine balance', which coincidently was very nearly the name I chose for my boat ( in the end I thought it a bit presumptuous and didn't want to tempt providence!).  It is the name of a fantastic book by Johindra Mistry.
  • 18 Aug 2014 00:59
    Reply # 3076293 on 3045049
    Edward and Slieve: all good points, and I do think it's a shame  that Amiina didn't get to sail against a more 'standard' Splinter.  Not because her performance was anything to be embarrassed about, but because the fact that she didn't outpoint the other boat on every point of sailing, will mean that most people will just read it as 'junks don't sail to windward'.  Ah well, never mind.  The more or us who are out there sailing, the more people will come to realise that for cruising, junk rig is a genuine alternative.

    I suspect that Whisper's rig alone cost more than Amiina: something worth thinking about in this day and age :-)

    And. prejudiced as I am, I think Amiina is a lot prettier!!

    e.


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  • 17 Aug 2014 23:56
    Reply # 3076261 on 3076138
    Anonymous member (Administrator)
    Edward Hooper wrote:
    Hei Arne,  Will your 26' Marieholme  IF have your normal oversized rig, or will you go with exactly the same sail area as your friend's race tuned Nordic Folkboat?  

    Likewise has Ketil kept the same sized rig as the other X boats, or gone 20% larger?


    Overseize rig?
    I cannot remember having fitted an oversize rig, only a couple of oversize masts. Sails can be reefed down, but masts cannot.

    In fact the LAP of Johanna’s mast is about exactly the same as that of Jester. The fact that Johanna can set 48.4m2versus Jesters 22, only shows that I made good use of Johanna’s short mast.

    Ingeborg, the IF, will have a 35.2m2 sail, set on a mast with a total length of 9.7m. That area is the same as mainsail plus Genoa 1 on the Bermuda rig. This gives a moderate SA/disp ratio of 21.1.

    I must be getting older...

    Cheers,
    Arne

  • 17 Aug 2014 18:39
    Reply # 3076146 on 3045049
    Deleted user

    Out of interest, who sailed Amiina during the upwind tests? It is common experience that a junk rig can be made to sail closer to the wind than a bermudan rig, but will go a lot slower - best speed is usually achieved by freeing the sail off  a bit. The fact that the author says that Amiina pointed higher but went slower seems to indicate that this might have been the case. Presumably this is also true of a split rig? If Edward sailed her I guess this was not an issue.

  • 17 Aug 2014 18:23
    Reply # 3076138 on 3075394
    Deleted user
    Arne Kverneland wrote:"..............

    Still, one runs into the racing dilemma: With a JR (with constant camber) you have to keep the sail area down to keep the handicap down, but you don’t pay for being able to adjust the camber under way, as the Bm-rigged boats can.

    ..............

    Next year, hopefully, I will have my 26’ Marieholm IF ready with a JR and then she will be tested (raced) thoroughly against a friend’s race-tuned Nordic Folkboat. We will have a whole summer and can try them in different conditions. The folkboat-owner, Allan, sailed with me in Frøken Sørensen yesterday, and when noting our tacking angle, he expressed concerns for the next season...

     

    Cheers, Arne

     

    Hei Arne,  Will your 26' Marieholme  IF have your normal oversized rig, or will you go with exactly the same sail area as your friend's race tuned Nordic Folkboat?  

    Likewise has Ketil kept the same sized rig as the other X boats, or gone 20% larger?

  • 17 Aug 2014 18:11
    Reply # 3076137 on 3045049
    Deleted user

    Hi Guys,

    For the record this was not a race, nor even a race test.  It was two boats out with an expert journalist, to try and assess the relative merits of the two rigs in the conditions pertaining on the day.

    One factor you are all ignoring, or else are far too polite to mention, is the Human Factor.  Steve is an excellent sailor, sailing a boat he has had for a number of years, racing at least twice a week, if not more often.  He knows his boat and his rig inside out and backwards.  He will know exactly how to get the best out of it in all conditions.  By comparison not only am I a geriatric 'old fart', but my racing experience is extremely limited; even my experience and knowledge of 'Amiina'  is relatively limited and I am on a very steep learning curve.  In all my life I haven't raced around the cans more than a couple of dozen times, and 95% of that would have been in Bermudan rigs. What David did not say in the article was how Steve got into all sorts of problems when trying to fly the spinnaker single handed.  When it worked it was great, but highly unstable and complicated to unscramble when in a mess.  Amiina meanwhile was 'poetry in motion', 'ease and grace' , and could have been handled by a ten year old

    This day out didn't really tell us anything different from what we already knew.  Bermudans are still  faster to windward, slower downwind, more difficult to handle, more dangerous in a gybe, more expensive - especially when things go wrong.  What has changed is that thanks to Slieve's designs the windward gap is definitely narrowing, a split junk can point as high quite happily and with purpose.  We are contemplating some further mods that could bring further improvements. The case for racing may not be proved, but the case for cruising is ever more strongly in the junks favour.

  • 16 Aug 2014 17:20
    Reply # 3075816 on 3045049
    Sorry for the slow comment, but we're in the French Alps with WiFi problems.

    It was interesting to read David Harding's report in Practical Boat Owner (PBO) comparing Amiina and Whisper. He makes a number of varied comparisons, and gives both rigs good constructive criticism.

    It’s clear that it’s going to be difficult to break the well earned cliché and convince the world that a junk rigged boat can sail as fast to windward as a Bermudan boat. Amiina didn’t do it on this occasion, and even though David Harding did state that Whisper was an expensively prepared boat he did not state in his conclusion that, “Sailing against Whisper would be a challenge for any Splinter!” which I understand he has written elsewhere. In some respects this was a case of comparing an early Austin Mini with a home made engine with a tuned Mini Cooper, or in American terms, a standard saloon car with 'The General Lee' as driven by the Dukes of Hazard.

    We had no help when we came to draw a rig for Amiina. When I approached some sailmakers in an effort to find out about the rigs being used they would not even tell me the sail area being used, and it was clear that the racing boys were being very secretive. I had to contact the Van de Stadt design office who told me that the Splinter used 220 sq.ft, so that was what we used for Amiina. It was only when Edward started sailing that he found the boat to be rather tender, and over canvassed, and when he got his handicap for the 2013 Round the Island Race that we then discovered that the Bermudan boats are being raced with only about 175 sq.ft. This resulted in sailing this year's race with the miss-shapen rig with the top panel removed. Even though the ultra light wind killed the race, Edward's performance in getting round the Needles showed that he was outperforming many other faster boats, some of which didn't even get through Hurst narrows, let alone approach the Needles.

    When building the split rig for Poppy I wanted the windward performance to be as good as comparable average cruising boats, and in general sailing find that I achieved this aim while retained all the off wind advantages. The last time I tried I turned onto the transom of a Folkboat, but before I could form a conclusion he tacked and rolled up his headsail to motor. Bermudan don’t seem to sail to windward!. It's not going to be easy to convince the Bermudan Boys that the junk rig is coming up in performance as they will always be able to find a more highly tuned Bermudan racing boat to compare with. It's noticeable that Steve, the owner of Whisper did not sail her in this years race possibly because he was reported to have broken a couple of ribs as a result of a gybe. That's a painful reminder that Whisper's Bermudan rig has some significant disadvantages.

    Edward must be congratulated for the publicity he is getting for the rig in the boating press and in two of the top four national daily newspapers the weekend after the Island race.

    Cheers, Slieve. (Good grief, my wine glass is empty, again!)

    Last modified: 16 Aug 2014 17:27 | Anonymous member
  • 16 Aug 2014 08:58
    Reply # 3075736 on 3045049
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    David and Annie,


    I agree sooo much with you. However, the thing is that if you, like Edward, decide to race, you have to follow the race rules. With only one test race in what seems to have been on a light-wind day, one only gets half the picture, even though it appears that David Harding has gone quite systematically through all the points of sailing. His judgement seems to be fair enough.

    I would like to see the result list from the latest racing season of the Splinters in Poole. That should give a better picture. Still, most such races starts at the lee mark and finishes after one round plus another upwind leg to the weather mark. These races appear to be designed around the Bermuda rig, so they mostly get away with setting the spinnaker only once and then get a second upwind leg which favours Bm rigs.

    I think the races that Ketil participates in, in his Marie G, are fairer. They are more often longer and through a fixed route which gives a random mix of upwind and downwind legs, depending of that day’s weather.

    Cheers, Arne

     

       " ...there is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing as simply messing about in junk-rigged boats" 
                                                               - the Chinese Water Rat

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