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Suitability of a large sloop rig for cruising

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  • 13 Dec 2025 20:18
    Reply # 13572711 on 13567068

    Agreed, Graeme. Clarity for others looking back at this thread in the future is important. After Arnes response I went back and wrote "WX HELM" on my sketch and went back to the drawing board. I'm very much in the preliminary phase of a JR conversion and my intent with this thread is to get assistance with how to determine the suitability of a hull to a JR conversion. The BCC 28 is on my list of potential hulls, but for now it is just used as an example.

    Attached is what I came up with after taking the time to find the BR CE. Its much more in agreement with your CAD(?) drawing, which is surely much more accurate than my pencil and paper. The mast would definetly have to be forward of the forehatch. I was focusing too much on CLR in my first sketch, which I now realize is essentially irrelevant if you know the CE of the BR sail plan. 

    Pol's success with Annie as well as Paul's great success with Ilvy are very motivating to read about. I'm hoping to have a boat purchased by the end of this summer and be on my way to making a conversion a reality. In the meantime I'm working on my second plywood/epoxy dinghy build with some tapered-shaft oars, so that when the time comes I'll hopefully have the tools and skills with fiberglass/plywood and basic spar-making to get a JR conversion done. 

    2 files
    Last modified: 13 Dec 2025 20:22 | Anonymous member
  • 13 Dec 2025 00:29
    Reply # 13572585 on 13567068
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Not wishing to chime in over the top of Slieve, Arne and David, whose advice and comments I would always respect - but there is a sketch provided by Thomas, which is now "on the record", which I think needs to be questioned.

    Referring to the proposed conversion of Bristol Channel pilot cutter, which was posted on 4 December.

    The advice Thomas has received is 100% correct I believe, but no-one commented on the above proposed drawing, which I think, for the record, needs to be questioned.

    There is a reason for that long bowsprit.

    I think Thomas has placed the proposed junk sail too far aft.

    Slieve has expressed it perfectly: if you have an existing sail plan it might be better to forget about lead calculations (which is an art rather than a science anyway) and just follow the CoE on the sail plan which was given for the vessel. The only adjustment necessary should be if the vessel is known to have bad helm characteristics which suggest moving the CoE forward or aft a little from the given position. If the rig, as designed, is known to give good helm characteristics then it would make sense (if using a cambered junk rig) to match approximately the CoE from the original rig.

    In that case, of the three choices of CoE which appear on the above diagram, the forward-most one follows most closely the original rig, and if a junk sail is superimposed on that CoE, it will be further forward than on the above proposed rig. 

    [CoE = CoA = geometric centre of sail plan area. CoE is actually a misnomer, but it is a commonly used expression]

    The blue line represents the approximate CoE of the original rig. The Johanna 60 degree yard-angle sail with its high (25%) mast balance seems to be a reasonable and convenient fit. It's about 500 sq ft. Scaling it up or down might move the CoE by a cm or two, but that is roughly how it should look, I would have thought.

    I just want to question the record, for future readers, and I am sure that if I have made a mistake someone will point it out.

    Thomas might like to consider a similar large-foretriangle cutter rig conversion, done by Pol B some years ago (see Feb 2021 Boat of the Month)

    Pol wrote: “With Arne's encouragement we made the 550 sq ft (52 sq m) cambered sail. The gaff rig with tiny topsail was about 600 square feet, but the “smaller” JR seems to give her more power. 5.9m battens and yard are in aluminium tube with Douglas fir plugs in the ends to make them look and feel nice.

    My trial sail was a perfect summers day in Crinan Loch. Having eased the sheet, I hoisted sail and she was off, close reaching on her own like an arrow. I just could not believe it!  The mast was in the right place after all, and the rig appeared to be perfectly balanced. Heading back in later on, I gradually reduced sail. She only started slowing down when 3 panels remained. Power with ease.

    I had worried about the JR's ability to heave to. Experimenting, with 2 panels set in a F5, luffing and falling off, she made about 1 ½  knots.   OK, she’s not stopped as she would be with the gaff rig, but - in open water -  if she did tack herself she would do no harm, unless there was a big production underway in the galley at the time!

    This boat is transformed!! Space on deck, no clutter. The great spread of her single lug sail is a delight, even with the odd home-made wrinkle. I'm a life-long gaffer, but the nervousness about handling her (quite modest) rig short-handed in bad weather has vanished with the JR. Changing up a gear or down three gears was a chore, or worse. A jib that refused to roll up, the clatter of its sheet blocks on deck. All hardships of the past! We love sailing more than ever. Give us a F6 right aft, with tide and wind in opposition. Hateful conditions with more or less any other rig. But now, with no booming out headsails, no preventer, she guzzles the miles and we just grin at the ease of it all.


    Last modified: 15 Dec 2025 02:05 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 08 Dec 2025 20:22
    Reply # 13570976 on 13567068

    As David says, CLR, CoA, CoE etc is a minefield, but I don't see why you should worry about such mythical things.

    If you are converting a boat of known behaviour and performance with a conventional rig then use that information to find the CoA for your junk rig. For the SJR and with a Bermudian rigged boat with reasonable balanced performance then I just place an approximate CoA for the SJR in the same longitudinal place. My approx CoA is simply the 50% chord of Jib luff to Main leech. 

    So far that has not let me down and has produced well behaved boats.

    Cheers, Slieve.

  • 07 Dec 2025 18:55
    Reply # 13570667 on 13567068

    Thank you, Arne and David. This helps immensely. Your help makes these big projects seem much more achievable. 

  • 07 Dec 2025 11:53
    Reply # 13570599 on 13567068

    Thomas,

    Deciding on the amount of lead is somewhere between an inexact science and a black art; I wouldn’t try to tie it down too closely, especially on a long keeled boat where the actual CLR migrates quite a lot fore and aft in different conditions. I think that a wise strategy might be to go for 16% lead with 25% sail balance - knowing that it’s then going to be possible to set the sail a bit further aft if there’s lee helm in light going. I think that 50 sq m is enough area for the BCC 28, and as I said before, I’d go for a high AR, that should be limited only by the height of mast that you are able to get. A high AR on a short-ended boat like this results in less chance of sheet foul-ups, as well as giving lighter spars aloft and lower loads on the running lines.

  • 06 Dec 2025 22:27
    Reply # 13570524 on 13570481
    Anonymous member (Administrator)
    Thomas wrote:

    Ah, that makes sense. My thought process was that moving the CE closer to the CLR would make a more balanced rig, when its actually the opposite. Is this purely because of the fact the CLR moves forward when the boat is heeled? Or is there something else I'm missing? 

    Most of the other boats I'm interested in (pacific seacraft 34/37, Valiant 32, caliber 35) have fin keels and skeg hung rudders. Would you still recommend aiming for a CE 4-6% aft of the BR CE for those with a 60 degree yard + 25% balance setup?


    Thomas, I only know so or so much about boats; I am not an Oracle.

    However, the CLR of an underwater profile, or the CE of a sailplan is only a static, geometric centre. The real centre of pressure, CP, moves around a lot and generally sits well forward of the geometric centres.

    The general experience is that if a vessel balances well with a 2-sail Bermudan rig, it will do so with a sloop JR as well. I might put the JR only a little aft of the BR, and only if needed. Remember though that within the JR’s ‘halyard angle window’, the sail can be moved a little forward or aft on the mast.

    No guaranties…

    A.

  • 06 Dec 2025 19:44
    Reply # 13570481 on 13570441
    Anonymous wrote:

    Thomas

    Two things:

    ·        A single sail JR is much more powerful for its area than a 3-sail gaff (or Bermuda ) rig. A 50sqm JR would be plenty for that vessel.

    ·        A fully long-keeled vessel like this needs the highest lead to get a light helm. I bet that many of the helmsmen did get a good exercise  -  or they added a handy-billy to their tiller. I suggest that you aim for 16% lead  -  or are prepared for that handy-billy…

    To achieve 16% lead, I suggest:

    ·        Keep the sail shape with AR near 1.90, yard angle at 60deg and mast balance of 25% (which lets you move the sail forward or aft, a little).

    ·        Downscale the sail to 50sqm.

    ·        Move the sail with its mast forward until that lead is achieved, or at least 14%.

    Hopefully, the mast will not end up forward of the boat.

    Sorry, I am without drawing tools here.

    Cheers,
    Arne


    Ah, that makes sense. My thought process was that moving the CE closer to the CLR would make a more balanced rig, when its actually the opposite. Is this purely because of the fact the CLR moves forward when the boat is heeled? Or is there something else I'm missing? 

    Most of the other boats I'm interested in (pacific seacraft 34/37, Valiant 32, caliber 35) have fin keels and skeg hung rudders. Would you still recommend aiming for a CE 4-6% aft of the BR CE for those with a 60 degree yard + 25% balance setup?

  • 06 Dec 2025 16:21
    Reply # 13570441 on 13567068
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Thomas

    Two things:

    ·        A single sail JR is much more powerful for its area than a 3-sail gaff (or Bermuda ) rig. A 50sqm JR would be plenty for that vessel.

    ·        A fully long-keeled vessel like this needs the highest lead to get a light helm. I bet that many of the helmsmen did get a good exercise  -  or they added a handy-billy to their tiller. I suggest that you aim for 16% lead  -  or are prepared for that handy-billy…

    To achieve 16% lead, I suggest:

    ·        Keep the sail shape with AR near 1.90, yard angle at 60deg and mast balance of 25% (which lets you move the sail forward or aft, a little).

    ·        Downscale the sail to 50sqm.

    ·        Move the sail with its mast forward until that lead is achieved, or at least 14%.

    Hopefully, the mast will not end up forward of the boat.

    Sorry, I am without drawing tools here.

    Cheers,
    Arne


    Last modified: 06 Dec 2025 16:28 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 04 Dec 2025 20:15
    Reply # 13569936 on 13567068

    Thank you, Slieve. I did some more reading on your SJR and am very impressed. Although I'm a bit hesitant to add more complexity for increased preformance when, from what I've read, I think I'll be more than satisfied with the preformance of one of Arne's sailplans with cambered panels.

    I did a rough sketch of a rig on a BCC28, one of the hulls I'm strongly considering. The CE is tough to compute with the multitude of different headsail options on a cutter. Is there a "proper" way to do that? I drew it with the new CE 10% forward of the CLR. 

    1 file
  • 29 Nov 2025 10:18
    Reply # 13567849 on 13567068

    Poppy was 31 feet LOA and had a sailing displacement estimated at 5.25 tonnes. The Split rig was 50 sq.m I think and there was never any real load on the steering, even when over canvased.

    I agree with David T that a SJR with its high balance should behave well under a vane gear on a sloop around 30 - 35 ft. With the centre of pressure staying close to the mast on all points of sail the loads on the tiller seem always to be moderate. A 6 panel rig with a profile similar to the Poppy rig would seem sensible, but then, don't forget, I'm biased.

    Cheers,

    Slieve.

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