Maxi 77 junk rig conversion

  • 21 Jul 2023 08:57
    Reply # 13230561 on 13226713

    Hi Arne,


    I am beginning to realize that I should have started this thread in the technical forum, not the general one...

    Thank you for the new sail plan, explanations and sharing your experiences, especially about being faster upwind when reefed. I fully agree about the higher CE with that Kelt 8:50 sail. Still, I tend to the sail you drew last for these reasons:

    • As you said, I can always chop off. It will be way easier than "chopping on". And I am willing to experiment a bit.
    • from an aerodynamic view, high ARs are preferable. Do you have any practical experience here, whether such a difference of AR 1.8 to AR 1.9 is noticeable while sailing? Or would it be more of an academic example?
    • I like the 60° yard, especially to be better able to adjust sail balance while sailing. In theory, the aerodynamic center of a profile is at 25% chord length, almost independent of angle of attack. This applies only to symmetrical profiles, at ideal assumptions. For cambered profiles, the position of aerodynamic center slightly deviates. Being able to let the mast balance go between 20 - 26% would give an interesting range to experiment (however, in one of your texts I'v read that some JR go up to 30% and are still stable).


    From what I can see in Junk Rig for Beginners, all panels of the Kelt 8:50 are cambered. Is that correct, or am I mistaking?


    Cheers,

    Paul


    PS: attached is a SVG-file of the maxi 77 plan, which I redraw with CAD at some long dark winter evenings to not being forded to further work on pixely bitmap plans... I would be glad if it could be handy for someone.

    1 file
  • 20 Jul 2023 10:07
    Reply # 13230112 on 13226713
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Paul

    Good to see that you have received some first hand experience with JR. That BB17 probably belonged to Sebastian Hentschel for a while, and of course, these go well to windward with a good sail.

    The reason why I am a bit sceptical to the 35sqm rig on a Maxi 77, is that the Maxi is taller and the need for a tabernacle (10% of the LAP), brings the rig quite high up. The total length of Ingeborg’s mast is 9.7m, so the mast top is around 9.6m above the waterline, while the mast of that Maxi will reach over 10.3m up. This will also bring the CE higher up. I notice that when I sail my Ingeborg in a rising wind, the actual top speed when close-hauled or on a beam reach with 6 or 5 panels set is higher than when sailing  ‘7-up’.
    Still, I don’t think the 35sqm rig will kill your Maxi. If you find it to be too tender, you can always chop off some of the mast and reduce the sail to 6 panels later. I did that once to my first junk-rigged boat, Malena (in 1992).
    On the drawing below, I have shifted the mast further aft (..it could maybe be moved another 50-100mm...), but have not moved the sail. This increases the sail’s mast balance, which will make steering easier downwind, with the CE now sitting closer to the mast. To make the sail accept the increased mast balance, I have picked a modified master sail with a yard angle of only 60°. The sail I show you here is actually a straight 1:1 copy of the one seen on that Kelt 8:50, in the appendix of Junk Rig for Beginners. (http://goo.gl/vzGLzi )

    Have a look

    Arne

    (Full size diagram on Arne's sketches, section 7-24)

    Last modified: 20 Jul 2023 19:36 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 19 Jul 2023 22:15
    Reply # 13229965 on 13229946
    Anonymous wrote:

    Bonjour Paul

    I've seen on youtube, but I didn't kept the link a video of a boat with a similar mast holding system.

    The two rear arms were fixed to the winch supports.

    I'll try and recover it.

    Amicalement

    Eric

    Bonsoir Eric

    that would be very interesting to see! Thanks for trying and recovering it.

    Paul

  • 19 Jul 2023 22:08
    Reply # 13229964 on 13226713

    Now to the sail plans: thanks again for your effort! I have questions, and I hope you do not receive them as questioning your knowledge but really being interested in understanding and learning.

    Arne, you wrote the mast position 300 mm forward of the WC will call for a fairly broad sail. If not constrained by the WC (as everything is above deck), would you go for a narrower sail? Why? This would of course mean a vertically stretched sail plan if the sail area should remain constant.

    If freed from any constraints, would you move the mast more aft? Why?

    Regarding Ingeborgs sail on Ilvy (that's the name of my Maxi 77): Would you rather reduce the sail area on Ingeborg? Why? If the 35 m² sail fits an IF, why would you think it too big for Ilvy? The Maxi 77 is definitely showing more initial stability due to the U-shaped hull than an IF, and due to the deep keel (compared to an IF) and keel bulb probably also more total stability.


    Graeme, what is it that makes you vouch for the excellence of the shown SJR? Do you experience heavy upwind performance boosts or something like that?

    How does it affect your sailing that your SJR only has on triangular panel? Did you ever sail with that last panel only?

    As the tabernacle thingy will probably take up enough of my junk rig conversion time, I am a bit hesitating to really go for a SJR (though I really like the concept of it! I will probably end up with a huge knife in my hand, in the swedish archipelagoes, frantically cutting vertical scars into my cambered junk to make up for not having gone for a SJR...)



    Luckily, me and my girlfriend Toni were able to sail on sunday with Kay from Lübeck. The opportunity really came rather quickly! He is a nice guy and was very kind to take us along in force 6, gusting 7, for a junk rig demonstration ride on the river Trave. We did not enter the open sea, but had some fun on Dassower Wiek (kind of a lake which is connected to the river Trave). It was very interesting to finally be onboard a sailing junk rigged yacht. It was a Westerly 22, with bilge keels.

    On the next day, Axel called me from Essen with his junk rigged BB17 "Athena". His boat is running to windward as heck, easily (or almost) keeping up with an IF. He did sent me very nice drone shots of him sailing with his fine yacht. It showed impressive upwind performance, tacking angles of about 90° and smooth tacks.

    Those videos also convinced Toni, so all is well!

    Sure, "Athena" got cambered sails and mast and spars of just the right dimensions (fine work of the sailmaker "Tuchwerkstatt" in Greifswald) and also, she is quite a fast running classic yacht.

    Last modified: 17 Sep 2024 18:14 | Anonymous member
  • 19 Jul 2023 21:37
    Reply # 13229946 on 13226713
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Bonjour Paul

    I've seen on youtube, but I didn't kept the link a video of a boat with a similar mast holding system.

    The two rear arms were fixed to the winch supports.

    I'll try and recover it.

    Amicalement

    Eric

  • 19 Jul 2023 20:51
    Reply # 13229927 on 13226713

    Arne and Graeme,

    first of all, thank you very much for sketching even more sail plans! I'll get to those further below.

    I value both of your advice regarding the mast foot and tabernacle issue  a lot. I also fully understand that it would be way easier to have a thru-deck tabernacle. Yet, giving up the V-berth really is not an option. I do like the ease of just getting up, set up the kettle and start the day. Re-arranging the saloon from sleeping mode to day mode is something I really want to omit (I am a lazy bum - sometimes). Also, from a social point of view, when living together in such a confined space it is very helpful to have two "separate" rooms from time to time. This may not apply to every relationship, but we learned during the one year long sailing trip on our former boat, that being able to seclude oneself for some hours or even some ten minutes is crucial for the well-being of our relationship. A separate salon and V-berth makes a huge difference here, even if only separated by a curtain. (also, I just finished some cozy, seagras-stuffed mattresses for the v-berth this spring. Don't want to give up on them)

    Yet, I like the challenge of designing this above-deck tabernacle structure. Probably it will be ugly, heavy, adding a lot of windage ... people will laugh at me and point to the next thrash yard. Still, I want to test this idea of mine.

    Attached are some crude sketches of the above-deck tabernacle (really need to practice hand-drawing...). Also, the actual deck layout and hull above water as foto reference. It can be seen that the hatch is located at the front end of the v-shaped deck step.

    The tabernacle would stand on transversal beams. Those could be two diagonal full beams (a) or one transversal full beam with two diagonal half beams (b). There are points for each design:

    version (a) definitely shows longer beams, thus requiring stiffer beams. Yet, they would allow diagonal tube in four almost opposing directions. For every wind direction, there would be beams with tension load and beams with compression loads.

    Version (b) would allow one shorter beam length because it is transversal -> less stiffness required. Only two diagonal tubes for the rig moment would be required as a minimum. However, load distribution of the mast moment would not be as smooth: for all wind directions except dead running, one diagonal tube will be heavily loaded with compression load. Not favourable, tension loads are more forgiving than compression loads (buckling, etc.).

    All these challenges would be manageable, its just a matter of sufficient dimensioning. I will have to decide which option would be the most simple and most failsafe. By now, I tend to a modified version (b): only one able transversal beam, no diagonal beams at all. And then only two able tubes leading diagonally backwards (just as the diagonal half beams I've sketched in (b)).

    Material for the tabernacle could be stainless steel (expensive, shiny, heavy), galvanized steel (cheap, ugly, heavy) or heavily fibreglassed plywood (cheap, light)... By now I tend to galvanized steel or fibreglass.

    The whole above-deck structure would be mounted by only four bolt connections to the hull. The connection points would be stiffened from inside as shown in the detail drawing. The inside stiffeners would not be too big in dimension. Their main function would be to better distribute the loads into the hull. Other than showed in the sketch, I would probably extend them more inwards at the deck area (to be more like a knee panel), thus reducing the distortion of deck and hull. Material for the stiffeners could be stainless steel or fibreglass... Probably the later one.


    Paul

    6 files
  • 19 Jul 2023 19:39
    Reply # 13229883 on 13228049
    Anonymous wrote:

    Paul, I can see the point in that a mast or tabernacle through the v-berth may be a bit antisocial. However, you will only want a full size berth when in harbour. Under way, you will need a secure sea-berth for the one off watch.

    What about bringing your metre stick on board and try figure out how to make a ‘wall-to-wall’ harbour berth in the main cabin? The original Bermudan mast support will not be needed any more, so there will be plenty of room. You may have to make a new table (or modify the one you have), but this seems to me to be a much easier job than designing and making an over-deck tabernacle. The tabernacle through deck can also be offset a bit to starboard (10-15cm). That way you sacrifice one bed, but retains a good one.

    In harbour the forepeak can serve as a private loo, and suddenly there will even be room for a wash basin on the starboard side.

    As for sail area, I would not recommend more than 35sqm, The sail of my IF, Ingeborg would fit...

    Anyway, good luck.

    Arne


    Arne, that idea of yours to make a 'wall-to-wall' berth was quite interesting (I understand you mean to have transversal berths). Now as I am 2 m tall, I won't fit like this into the little Maxi... Even more, because my body height, already the starboard locker lost its forward wall. It's locker function was thus reduced to only one single wall instead of storing space, what a pity! However, your idea made me fidling with the meter stick for hours, and the outcome is, that the V-berth will be extended to the longitudinal location of the stern wall of the lockers :)

    I definitely see your point regarding the secure sea-berth for the one off watch. This surely will be very interesting for long passages. However, as we plan to sail around Sweden in 2024, I expect to not be more than lets say 10 nights. For the rest of the six months we will probably spent the nights at anchor (and a few in harbours).

    Paul

  • 15 Jul 2023 12:17
    Reply # 13228209 on 13226713
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Paul,
    now I have had a second run (since it is still raining).

    I simply copied the sail of my Ingeborg over onto your boat. The mast position is the same, but a through-deck  tabernacle has been added, as short one as possible.
    I am not sure if I like this rig, as to me it appears to be on the tall side. The problem is not the sail area (SA/disp. = 22.4), which can be reefed away, but the weight and windage of the taller mast. After all, you are planning to take your boat offshore. The first sail (AR =1.80) I drew up for you would only need a 9.80m tall mast with the tabernacle.

    Arne

    (Full size diagram on Arne's sketches, Section 7-23)

    Last modified: 15 Jul 2023 15:29 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 15 Jul 2023 00:12
    Reply # 13228127 on 13226713
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    I agree with Arne that re-arranging the internal accommodation will be a more practical solution than trying to invent a tabernacle with an entirely above-deck structure. The alternative use of forepeak, as suggested by Arne, I think is your best option - and it is more than likely that when at sea, you will end up finding that one of your midship single berths is more comfortable for the person off watch, than the forward berth anyway. The only real challenge is working out a clever way of quickly re-arranging the sleeping arrangements in the main cabin, for when you are not sailing.

    I don't understand your sentence: For the mast position, this would allow the mast to be placed backwards up to the front hatch, so about 300-400 mm further aft.

    A second best possibility, just for the sake of bouncing ideas (and because you expressed an interest in SJR) here is a look at what a SJR might look like:


    The mast centreline (or thru-deck tabernacle) would come down through the companionway between your toilet and hand basin. The forward cabin with double berth remains intact, but for easy access, the mast would probably have to be offset (not a game changer) and either the toilet or the hand basin would probably need to go. If there is only going to be two of you, a portable toilet might be an option. The rig might need to be raised slightly to ensure there is room below the boom for running parrel-downhaul spans, which are a feature of this rig. Also, to match the sail area that Arne has given you, you would need to have a bit more mast height than Arne's rig requires. On the other hand, the weight of the mast is a little further aft, closer to the designed weight distribution, which is all to the good.

    Shown is a copy of the Amiina Mkll rig which is designed by Slieve McGalliard - I don't think he will object to me using this as a discussion example - I can vouch for its excellence as a sail design and would recommend further consultation with Slieve if it interests you. I would not recommend altering its proportions, but you could scale it up or down a little. I have no doubt your high performance hull would get the best out of this sail, and if it were me (because I have grown to like this sail very much) I would give it consideration. (That is just me, personally - and I should add - I don't have a wide range of experience in regard to junk rig). I think most people would agree that the proposition put forward by Arne is probably your best choice because of internal arrangement considerations, which may be more important to you than they would be to me.

    Either rig [or possibly something in between] is doable, and in any case I would expect your boat will be an especially good performer under a modern cambered junk rig.

    Last modified: 15 Jul 2023 01:53 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 14 Jul 2023 21:49
    Reply # 13228049 on 13226713
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Paul, I can see the point in that a mast or tabernacle through the v-berth may be a bit antisocial. However, you will only want a full size berth when in harbour. Under way, you will need a secure sea-berth for the one off watch.

    What about bringing your metre stick on board and try figure out how to make a ‘wall-to-wall’ harbour berth in the main cabin? The original Bermudan mast support will not be needed any more, so there will be plenty of room. You may have to make a new table (or modify the one you have), but this seems to me to be a much easier job than designing and making an over-deck tabernacle. The tabernacle through deck can also be offset a bit to starboard (10-15cm). That way you sacrifice one bed, but retains a good one.

    In harbour the forepeak can serve as a private loo, and suddenly there will even be room for a wash basin on the starboard side.

    As for sail area, I would not recommend more than 35sqm, The sail of my IF, Ingeborg would fit...

    Anyway, good luck.

    Arne


       " ...there is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing as simply messing about in junk-rigged boats" 
                                                               - the Chinese Water Rat

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