Split Junk Rig on Westerly Windrush

  • 24 Mar 2013 00:21
    Reply # 1250261 on 1248976

    Thanks for the sketch Chris.

    A quick look suggests that the mast would be quite a bit further aft than you have draw it, as the mast should be in line with the luff of the 'main sail' and I use a differrent Cof E position to the one you have used. From this sketch, and at a rough guess the centreline of the mast might be about the centre of the little hatch on the coach roof. (Note the use of the word 'about'). Note that the fat mast as drawn effectively closes the split in the sail.

    I see you've drawn all panels split, which everyone seems to want, but I discourage. By the way, the latest thinking is for a simpler rig with fewer battens. Still, we'll have a chat sometime.

    Cheers, Slieve

  • 23 Mar 2013 23:50
    Reply # 1250251 on 1248976
    Deleted user
    Slieve, thanks for your detailed reply - it would be great to have a chat about this some time, once I've got my head around it well enough to be capable of reasonable coherence.

    I am old enough to have made enough mistakes to realise that the right answer is very much preferable to the answer I would like to be right.

    I have uploaded a simple sketch I have made of the Windrush as an aid to thought on this subject. s It have marked the approximate positions of the CLR and CE of the original Bermudan rig, together with position of bermudan mast. I have superimposed what is basically your sketch of Poppy's rig, scaled to what I envisage, with the new CE marked on it.

    If a fat hollow wooden mast is not part of the right answer, presumably you would recommend a smaller aluminium section? Maybe in a tabernacle?

    Edit: the sail as I have drawn it has 33% balance.
    Last modified: 24 Mar 2013 00:04 | Deleted user
  • 23 Mar 2013 22:39
    Reply # 1250237 on 1248976

    Annie's mail above arrived while I was writing mine, and she has made a useful point. Missee Lee had a lot of sail balance, which is what is needed with the split junk, so Missee Lee might have been a good boat for the SJ. Something more to think about.

    Cheers, sleive

  • 23 Mar 2013 22:30
    Reply # 1250235 on 1248976

    Hi Chris

    Many years ago I asked Annie (Hill) how well Missee Lee sailed to windward and her instant reply was, and I quote, ‘She didn’t.’ She may have qualified the response after that, but her instant response burned itself into my memory. This was about the time I was starting to study the lack of windward performance of the otherwise excellent junk rig, and was an interesting starting point.

    Missee Lee was a 20 foot Westcoaster, designed by Commander Denys Ryner who was the founder of Westerly Yachts. His first design was the Westerly22, which was basically a Westcoaster, but built in glass. The design got stretched and extended aft to bring the outboard motor inboard of the transom, and the final stage of the development was the 25 foot Westerly Windrush, still with triple keel but weighing a couple of tonnes. There’s no doubt it’s a great boat with a lot of character, but windward performance will not be its strong point with any rig. Whatever rig is used, this is a design which needs as much help to windward as possible, I believe it is important to get the rig right and accept some slight inconvenience, rather than get the accommodation right and accept questionable ability upwind.

    To get the best performance out of the triple keels this boat would need a rig that will give the best possible lift/ drag ratio and will need to be sailed a decent speed to keep the keels working. Of all the junk rigs I believe the split rig would work best on this boat, but it would be a waste of time to use if not set up for it’s best possible performance, with slim mast correctly positioned. Finding the correct position for the mast might not be that easy. A lot would depend on getting an accurate drawing of the hull and standard sail plan, and some information on how it actually behaves with the standard rig.

    I would be surprised if the thick hollow mast positioned as you suggest and with a 30% balance would be a success. I think it would be necessary to design the rig first and marry it to the hull second. I’m sure this is not the answer you were hoping for Chris, but if you are going to go to the trouble to convert the rig then make sure you get the best possible return for the effort.

    If you’ve got a landline let me have your number and we can have a chat about it.

    Cheers, Slieve

    The designer and builder of my new boat has a track record which goes back to the 60's, when he was involved in the design and testing of British entries for the Americas Cup. One rig he designed for a development class was banned because it won too many of the races, and I have used information from some of his work when designing Poppy’s rig. There is much to learn. I'm looking for a good photo to put on my profile.

  • 23 Mar 2013 22:20
    Reply # 1250231 on 1249816
    Chris Gallienne wrote:I believe you have experience of a junk rig on a not-too-distant ancestor of the Windrush - how was that? I'm guessing this was before some of the recent developments in things like camber (pre-camberian?)...
    Yes, I had a lovely little Westcoaster, which was essentially the same boat as a Westerly 21.  We fitted a junk rig, with the mast in a tabernacle and had a huge amount of fun with her.  In order to fit around the accommodation, we put a huge amount of balance on the sail, which proved to be a bit too much really, and I would not recommend that.  (The boat wouldn't lie to very easily, because the sail would keep tacking itself).  The tabernacle was a real success, allowing us to go and explore the Brittany canals for several months.  Our auxiliary was a 2 hp Honda outboard, so obviously the boat sailed satisfactorily.

    Oh yes: and the sail was cut completely flat. 

    Last modified: 23 Mar 2013 22:21 | Anonymous member
  • 23 Mar 2013 16:02
    Reply # 1250077 on 1250070
    Slieve McGalliard wrote:

    Hi Chris

    I've only just seen your posting, and will get back to you very soon. I want ot read up on the Windrush first.

    In haste,

    Cheers,  Slieve

    PS. Last night I took delivery of my new boat for racing.


    Whot!!! New boat for racing? Is this epidemic? What happened to the fear of the serpent? Enjoy, its great fun.

    Ketil

  • 23 Mar 2013 15:50
    Reply # 1250070 on 1248976

    Hi Chris

    I've only just seen your posting, and will get back to you very soon. I want ot read up on the Windrush first.

    In haste,

    Cheers,  Slieve

    PS. Last night I took delivery of my new boat for racing.

    Last modified: 23 Mar 2013 15:53 | Anonymous member
  • 23 Mar 2013 07:20
    Reply # 1249926 on 1249816
    Chris Gallienne wrote: (pre-camberian?)...
    Nice bit of word-play! Thanks for raising a chuckle :-)

    I'm afraid it's only Slieve and Edward, here, who have direct experience of the split rig, and I was holding back for them to have their say. I expect they will, soon, but in the meantime, all that you said in your first posting makes sense to me.
  • 23 Mar 2013 01:27
    Reply # 1249816 on 1248976
    Deleted user
    Hi Annie, thanks for the reply.

    I am in no hurry and still enjoying reading around the subject (including VSI of course).
    I believe you have experience of a junk rig on a not-too-distant ancestor of the Windrush - how was that? I'm guessing this was before some of the recent developments in things like camber (pre-camberian?)...
  • 23 Mar 2013 00:13
    Reply # 1249786 on 1248976
    Hi Chris.  Nice to see a new 'poster'.  Sorry no-one has come back to you on this: we are all waiting with bated breath to see what Slieve has to say.  And he is often a very busy man! 

    I'm afraid I t know very little about the Split Junk Rig, but those who have it seem very pleased with it.  The cambered junk rig, fanned or otherwise, is probably a more straightforward proposition and I can assure you that it is a joy to sail, including to windward.  One of the huge advantages of junk rig is that because it is so easy to make or reef sail, one is usually sailing with exactly the correct amount of sail area, which is always perfectly balanced (assuming you got it right to start with!).  This alone means that the boat makes faster passages.  I suspect you will get a lot more pleasure out of sailing your boat, once you have changed to JR. 
       " ...there is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing as simply messing about in junk-rigged boats" 
                                                               - the Chinese Water Rat

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