Galley alcohol, gas, diesel and induction cookers/ovens

  • 26 May 2016 20:32
    Reply # 4041244 on 4040901
    Honsec JRA wrote:

    ... but I leave it to the next Hon Sec and Committee to decide whether to become involved or not.

     

    I didn't mean to be too dismissive, but I couldn't see how this project could possibly fall within the JRA Aims and Objects. I feel that all that is required of the JRA committee is to look on benignly while we children play with our toys.
  • 26 May 2016 20:26
    Reply # 4041241 on 4041060
    Darren Bos wrote:

    David, I was looking at the valve in your parts list and it looks like a plain valve with the knob and needle valve oriented 90 degrees to the flow path, while the knob on the Maxie is aligned axially with the needle of the valve.  Were you thinking of a different arrangement to control the fuel flow?  Or maybe you would locate the valve in what is now the drip tube of the Maxie?

    I threw in this valve as an example of a low-cost easily obtained needle valve, which avoided the skilled task of making one, but I must admit that I don't have a clear idea of how to use it.

    I found, when I couldn't turn my needle valve and had to use the shutoff valve at the tank, that the burner was very slow to respond - not surprising with nearly a metre of hose. What this teaches me is that the needle valve must be very close to the burner, and that it must have vapour flowing through it, not liquid fuel, to respond quickly. It must be downstream of the area where vaporisation takes place (which, I think, is just behind the burner chamber on the Maxie), and just upstream of the final exit hole, with not too long a path between the two, and not too voluminous a tube downstream of the valve. This creates a difficulty with any separate valve, and it may be that the built-in valve is the only way to go. I don't know. Perhaps what's needed, so long as a separate valve can withstand heat well enough to be close to the burner, is to have the flow horizontal through the valve, with the spindle (extended) pointing outwards towards the operator.

  • 26 May 2016 18:55
    Reply # 4041060 on 1195343
    Deleted user

    There is a fairly large community that has developed a series of lightweight popcan-based alcohol stoves in an online crowd-sourcing format and the results have been really positive with a lot of innovation leading to some really nice designs.  All of this has happened without the need for a formal development structure.  

    By the time you alter any stove in any way, you have entered the territory that you are on your own and responsible for your own actions (I'm sure your insurance company will back me up on this).  This will mean that anyone interested in such a stove would have to invest the time and energy in convincing themselves they can implement it properly.  However, this really isn't much different from the way we discuss and implement many of the systems in our boats already.  For example, certain sheeting arrangements are more likely to lead to someone getting clobbered during a gybe and knocked overboard unconscious.  Like all things on your boat, you are ultimately responsible for what happens (thank goodness this refuge of responsibility still exists).

    I'm really grateful for how free David, Arne, Annie and others have been with sharing their ideas, and I think ideas rather than products are what we are discussing here.  It is not uncommon to see disclaimers on sites that ideas are shared for information only and that end-users are responsible for their own implementation.  A lot of development could happen within that kind of framework and many people could implement some very useful stoves on their boats.  Should a mature design arise that someone wants to take the responsibility for manufacturing (when you make it and sell it, you do take on liability), then they could choose to do so, but it would be a shame to see innovation wither because the JRA was trying to develop a product rather than share ideas.  I think most folks could develop the skills to build a stove without much difficulty, but even for those who don't want to, there is often a small machine shop nearby who would do it for you and the cost would likely be comparable to a commercially purchased product.

    David, I was looking at the valve in your parts list and it looks like a plain valve with the knob and needle valve oriented 90 degrees to the flow path, while the knob on the Maxie is aligned axially with the needle of the valve.  Were you thinking of a different arrangement to control the fuel flow?  Or maybe you would locate the valve in what is now the drip tube of the Maxie?

  • 26 May 2016 16:47
    Reply # 4040901 on 1195343
    Anonymous

    David,

    I found your suggested development of a marine grade burner/cooker very attractive, and could personally get quite enthusiastic about it, but as Hon Sec I am obliged to be more circumspect. I was positing a formal JRA project, which might possibly have been allocated some funding. For that to happen I would need certain “business”-like practices to be adhered to, whether formally or informally, and so I adopted the terms you seem to object to, as a shorthand for what I was thinking, not to imply any hope or intention to create anything “commercial”. But neither would I rule out a commercial involvement – after all not everyone has your knowledge, or skills enough to safely turn your ideas into practice, and surely even you can only be expected to satisfy a rather limited proportion of any demand that may be generated for a physical product.

    In my role as Hon Sec I would expect any proposal for a formal JRA project to be :-

    a) fully thought out, and described in sufficient detail for the Committee to make a decision on it ;
    b) demonstrated to be in compliance with the Constitution ;
    c) fully costed, in so far as it were possible ;
    d) shown to potentially benefit a significant proportion of the membership.

    Regarding 'financial viability' – at the very least, someone will need to buy materials for a prototype, and spend time making and re-making it, and would either be willing to fund that themselves or somehow recoup the cost from the “crowd”. Ideally, this would be laid down beforehand in a 'coherent business plan', (or prospectus, or whatever term you feel comfortable with), along with the scope of the project, so making it more likely that everyone was 'talking the same language'. Whether you accept it or not your suggestion would result in a product : whether an idea (a product of your imagination) ; a set of drawings and instructions ; a kit of parts ; or a finished item. At the moment you have presented an idea – to go further (however it were produced, or by whom) is in effect 'taking the product forward'.  (Btw, in my dictionary the word "product" is commercial-neutral).

    Since you are suggesting developing an item, which would be made by laymen, of unknown abilities, and which is intended to turn fuel into heat by combustion, I would suggest that some kind of prospectus would at least serve to demonstrate to an inquest the degree of forethought you have put into your product. Lest you think I am being sensationalist and overblown I will give you an example from my own direct experience, which might have resulted in my own inquest.

    I inherited a Refleks heater installed by an “innovator”. The innovation seemed to me to amount to using inappropriate or inadequate materials to avoid the cost of the right stuff, together with a substantial disregard of the installation instructions. In particular, rather than creating a non-combustible hearth the heater had been mounted directly onto the cabin sole. After some months of ownership, I removed the heater to find that radiant heat from the burning pot had scorched and partially carbonised the wood beneath. Left lit when unattended, or while napping, this would have eventually led to ignition of the boat's fabric, or to carbon monoxide poisoning.

    I realise that you had not been asking for official JRA participation, beyond some enthusiastic volunteers from the membership. It seems my (intendedly) helpful suggestion (that it might be formally adopted) was unwelcome. The extra thought I have put in whilst drawing up this further response has persuaded me that my suggestion was unwise. I do not doubt that in the fullness of time you will go on to develop a successful product, which will be implemented by many of our members without mishap, but I leave it to the next Hon Sec and Committee to decide whether to become involved or not.

     

  • 26 May 2016 09:40
    Reply # 4040218 on 1195343

    Doing a little more research, I find that there used to be another Australian-made alcohol stove, the Ravia, with a burner designed on the same principle as, but not quite  identical to, the Maxie burner. There are some good photos on this forum thread. I wonder how long ago these were made, and what the burners were made from, and all sorts of other questions.

  • 26 May 2016 09:04
    Reply # 4040200 on 4040146
    Honsec JRA wrote:

    How does anyone see this progressing?

    We're not talking the same language here. I'm not interested in 'financial viability', or a 'coherent business plan', or in 'taking the product forward', or in any other form of 'business speak'.

    I'm talking about a group of sailors collaborating with each other to create something that they see as appropriate to their needs, so as not to have to accept what a manufacturer sees fit to offer them as a commercial product. Just as we are used to doing with our junk rigs.

    I didn't write 'crowdfunding", I wrote 'crowdsourcing': "the process of obtaining needed services, ideas, or content by soliciting contributions from a large group of people, especially an online community, rather than from employees or suppliers."

    Any work that I do on designing and making such a cooker will be opensource, carried out in collaboration with potential end users, and with commercialism positively discouraged.

    Last modified: 26 May 2016 09:17 | Anonymous member
  • 26 May 2016 08:35
    Reply # 4040146 on 4039896
    Anonymous
    David Tyler wrote:

      What we need here is a bit of crowdsourcing; a pooling of skills to create the ideal cooker, designed and made by sailors for sailors to use. 


    I wonder what size the market might be for this.  As with JR, mainstream sailors would be sceptical of a change from their "norm" of gas bottle cooking, despite any greater advantages of safety, storage, convenience and freedom from meddling officialdom.  The market might be limited to those with an open mind, like JRA members, which would impact on its financial viability.

    Even with crowd funding a coherent business plan would need to be put in place to avoid embarrassing failure, let alone waste of time and money.  Is this something the JRA might take on as a project?  If so would the remit be the design and development alone, providing a set of drawings for individuals to self build?  Or would we take the product to manufacture, either on a small scale (for members only), or on a bigger scale (for general sale), or entice an existing manufacturer to take the product forward (with an inevitable bump in price level)?

    Then, of course, the issue of copyright comes into play, if we are basing the new burner's working principles on an existing product.  This could be avoided if the company who make that product were to be approached with our R&D for the "marine grade" improvement of their offering.  In which case they would probably want to do their own R&D, duplicating or wasting JRA members' efforts in that direction.

    How does anyone see this progressing?

  • 26 May 2016 05:47
    Reply # 4039896 on 4039522
    Annie Hill wrote:

    As for making my cooker, you are suggesting something that is well beyond my skills.  I can't even get solder to stick successfully.  Besides, it would add about a month to my build project!  I shall have to make do with whatever I can buy locally, I believe.

    I was really thinking back to something that Amos said, earlier in this topic:

    "I do have a brother that is semi-retired and is a skilled sheet metal worker that can make just about anything out of metal.  Maybe we need to come up with a cooker design similar to what was done with SibLim that would meet our needs."

    What we need here is a bit of crowdsourcing; a pooling of skills to create the ideal cooker, designed and made by sailors for sailors to use.


  • 26 May 2016 01:44
    Reply # 4039683 on 1195343
    Deleted user

    The Maxie burners seem to suffer from dealloying; the copper and zinc being too far apart in the galvanic series, and neither the marine environment nor the combustion products will be helpful. While I wouldn't expect miracles, a zinc anode might possibly make a difference to burner longevity... no harm in trying.

  • 25 May 2016 22:22
    Reply # 4039522 on 4038267
    David Tyler wrote:

    Go right ahead, Annie. This is the only contact info I can find (the links lead nowhere):


    Did so.  It will be interesting to see if there is any comeback.

    As for making my cooker, you are suggesting something that is well beyond my skills.  I can't even get solder to stick successfully.  Besides, it would add about a month to my build project!  I shall have to make do with whatever I can buy locally, I believe.


    Edit:  Well that was a waste of time:

    There was a problem delivering your email to:


    Topstoves@maxcoindustries.com


    WHAT HAPPENED?

    The domain name of the email address is not valid.

    Last modified: 25 May 2016 22:39 | Anonymous member
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