Galley alcohol, gas, diesel and induction cookers/ovens

  • 04 Apr 2017 15:31
    Reply # 4711419 on 1195343
    Deleted user

    Interesting as usual David.  I have two thoughts:

    Your problems with Methanol as fuel might also have been related to the heat content of the fuel source.  Methanol only has about 75% of the energy density (calorific value) of ethanol.  I think this is enough to turn a workable stove into one that is not.

    If I've interpreted you diagrams and my Maxie correctly.  You are going to be regulating liquid fuel, while the Maxie places the valve after the vaporization tube.  I wonder if this might create issues for regulating the flame, particularly at low settings?

  • 04 Apr 2017 13:29
    Reply # 4711208 on 1195343

    As I see it, Annie, the problem of designing a good galley stove breaks down into four parts:

    Choice of fuel. Methane (natural gas) is out because it cannot compressed into a liquid and transported in convenient tanks. All the other hydrocarbons in the "alkane" series (propane, butane onwards evaporate into gases that are heavier than air, something that is tolerable in a house, or when camping, but not aboard. The lighter ones, Coleman fuel/white gas/panel wipe/naphtha, evaporate very fast, and so I reluctantly discard them for use aboard. Similarly petrol/gasoline is not safe enough for use in a cabin. It's only when we reach kerosene in the series that the rate of evaporation becomes acceptably low for safety, and then of course that means that we have to do more work to get it into gaseous form for use. The alcohols, methanol and ethanol, still produce heavier than air vapours, but they evaporate relatively slowly, the % concentration of vapour in air that has to be reached before they will burn is higher than the alkanes and when they do ignite, they burn but don't explode. It seems to me that it's a no-brainer to cook using alcohol. 
    explosive-concentration-limits
    The burner. Making a burner to use alcohol is a matter of getting the fuel/air ratio right. Methanol and ethanol both need less air than the alkanes, but methanol needs air less than ethanol. So a burner has to specifically designed for each -
    Fuel Ratio by mass [6] Ratio by volume [7] Percent fuel by mass
    Gasoline 14.7 : 1 6.8%
    Natural gas 17.2 : 1 9.7  : 1 5.8%
    Propane (LP) 15.67 : 1 23.9 : 1 6.45%
    Ethanol 9 : 1 11.1%
    Methanol 6.47 : 1 15.6%
    n-Butanol 11.2 : 1 8.2%
    Hydrogen 34.3 : 1 2.39 : 1 2.9%
    Diesel 14.5 : 1 6.8%
    Methane 17.19 : 1 9.52 : 1 5.5%

    This will explain why I found the Maxie burner to be unsuitable for use with the methanol that is available in Canada - it was getting too much air. It may also have a bearing on the way that the Maxie burner disintegrates - too much air produces an "oxidising" flame, which is trying to convert the metal of the burner into oxides. Less air, and a "reducing" flame, might give a longer burner life.

    The fuel delivery. Gravity is reliable, but variable. A gravity-fed alcohol burner must not have too much or too little head of pressure, and oscillations, or pulsing of the fuel supply, can be a problem. A pressurised tank also is not ideal. This is where a lift pump comes in, as it can be made to deliver a constant flow or constant pressure, or both. I don't think the use of a pump should be discounted. A peristaltic pump, drawing from a low level tank, may not need a valve downstream of it. 

    Safety. Vapours in the bilge due to spilt fuel are the main hazard to be guarded against. Apart from spillages during refuelling, there are issues with leaks from fuel lines and valves. A gravity tank is not failsafe, and neither is a pressurised tank. Unless a low level tank itself leaks, it is more failsafe than a gravity or pressurised tank: if the fuel line or valvework fails, there is less possibility of major leakage (assuming that if the pump is in operation, then you are actually cooking and would be aware of any malfunction causing fuel to be pumped out through a leak). Again, a lift pump should not be discounted.

    For the engineers amongst us, here are two sketches of different approaches that I want to try. The first uses the same geometry as the Maxie burner,the second is a pot burner/perforated chimney burner.



     
    Last modified: 04 Apr 2017 13:40 | Anonymous member
  • 04 Apr 2017 11:10
    Reply # 4711074 on 1195343
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Annie,

    The problem with my suggestion was that I looked at both stoves and heaters.

    On the heaters I have seen, in particular the Taylor pot burner, there is a potentially dangerous regulator problem (run-away). A calibrated dose-pump, adjustable for setting of the heaters output, would solve that.

    Alcohol stoves of the hot blue-flame type only need a low pressure from the overhead tank (much, much lower than in a Primus-style kerosene stove), but this low pressure must be constant. This constant pressure can more easily be achieved by a manual or electric pump. The setting of the burner’s output would still be done with a valve close to the burner, as described by David.

    I admit; Jim Creighton’s link to stoves had me purchase a little stand-alone alcohol burner (it will arrive in some weeks). My thought is to try it and then modify it to feed it from an external tank. If the output of the burner is good, and it doesn’t crumble after a few months of use, then that could be an alternative to the Maxie.

    Cheers, Arne

    PS: Don’t talk yourself down, Annie. When I read your books and when I see the fine work you are doing on building SibLim, I bow to the dust. There is no way I could equal your standard, whether it be writing or boatbuilding. It is just that we focus on different things, and in the end, we tend to get quite good on what we have focused on for a while. Talent is 90% interest. These days, I am struggling with fitting a WC in a cramped compartment of my little Ingeborg. I wish I had your brains, right now!


    Last modified: 04 Apr 2017 16:02 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 03 Apr 2017 09:23
    Reply # 4708969 on 1195343
    Look, this is all terribly clever and no doubt fascinating to people like yourselves who have a brain.  However, our major problem is not with the fuel delivery: both Optimus with their wonderful pressure alcohol burners and Maxie with their clever wick system, have perfectly functional fuel systems.  (On second thoughts, I take that back - the Maxie system doesn't work that well on a pivoting stove.)  But the real issue is the burners.  What we want is someone either to produce pressure burners again, or to make a burner like the Maxie that doesn't gently crumble away over a couple of years, meanwhile leaving nasty flakes of metal that are very difficult to clean up.  I don't even understand half of what you are saying about these pumps, but it seems to me that we are wandering a long way from KISS and - worse - avoiding the real issue.  Please will someone make - or better still, discover - a good, seagoing burner that uses alcohol!
    Last modified: 03 Apr 2017 09:24 | Anonymous member
  • 02 Apr 2017 19:38
    Reply # 4707800 on 1195343
    Deleted user

    David, I never looked inside the pumps we used in the lab, but the outer control was just a potentiometer, I'm not sure if there was other circuitry involved to control pump speed, but for our purposes I think a stable DC source and a potentiometer would be both simple and effective.

    Arne, peristaltic pumps can have spring loaded rollers.  This in effect can take care of the pump should a safety valve be used.  With spring driven rollers, the rollers fail to totally compress the tube as the pressure rises and the pump effectively stops pumping at a relatively low pressure.  I have no idea how difficult it would be to find such a pump. The inexpensive pumps we are looking at on Ebay may be built to low enough tolerances that they squeeze the tubing lightly enough that they effectively stop pumping well before the burst of the tubing.  Also, fitting the pump with smaller diameter tubing could effectively do the same thing and yet still allow sufficient flow and pressure for a stove.  For a few dollars it would be an easy experiment to do.  Alternatively, you could also stop the pump the same way that some propane stoves have a gas solenoid that will shut off should the flame go out.

    The burner could either be controlled by a mechanical valve or by the potentiometer on a pump.  For a cooking stove I suspect a mechanical valve would be best, for a heater maybe the potentiometer would work.

    Other than using peristaltic pumps briefly in the lab I have no real experience with this, so take my comments accordingly.  You would also have to find tubing that is compatible with your fuel source and I suspect ethanol and diesel/kerosene would indeed need different hose types.

    For my diesel stove the manual suggests using a diaphragm pump in this kind of a situation.  Here is a link to the Walbro pump that came with my boat but was not installed.  They can be set to appropriate pressures and will likely make any surveyor or insurance provider much happier.  The diaphragm is rated for E85, so maybe it would be OK with straight ethanol.

    Last modified: 02 Apr 2017 22:53 | Deleted user
  • 01 Apr 2017 22:56
    Reply # 4706728 on 1195343
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Another idea, around midnight..

    Hm, came to think of it:
    If all we want is to artificially raise the fuel tank of a stove to a constant level above the burner (alcohol stove), why not just cannibalise an old primus by using its tank and pump and add a manometer to monitor the pressure? With the pressure set to 2m (0.2 atmospheres), for instance, the burner, controlled with a valve close to it, should be quite resistant against the heel of the boat.
    Just a thought...

    Cheers, Arne

    PS: I still like the idea of an electric pump to feed  -  and tame  -   the Taylor pot burner-type heater, which may be left to itself for hours.


  • 01 Apr 2017 08:54
    Reply # 4705712 on 1195343
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    A bypass loop

    I remember, on one of our radars used on Stavanger airport (where I used to work), the transformer oil in the high-voltage section of the transmitter was circulated via a cooler. The pump had no regulator. To limit the oilflow, a by-pass loop with an adjustable valve in it had been fitted. This easily let us reduce the pump’s net output.

    I think this technique could be the way to regulate the net output of this peristaltic pump, as well, without putting strain on it. The alternative is to just have this bypass loop set at a constant rate and then use a valve close to the burner do the regulator work, as described by David. Probably better, that.

    This setup could even have worked on the temperamental Taylor diesel heater (76D?) I had in Malena. That heater had an automatic shut-off in case the flame went out. The pump would keep on working, but thanks to the pressure-limiting bypass, no damage would be done.

    Arne

    PS: With that bypass loop fitted, one would need a pump valve to keep the fuel from draining back to the tank when shutting the pump off.


    Last modified: 01 Apr 2017 12:01 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 01 Apr 2017 08:12
    Reply # 4705697 on 1195343

    Small globe valves as used by makers of model steam engines are readily available, and can be placed very close to the burner to limit the volume of tube downstream of the valve. Small sizes of copper tube are available from the same source. This deals with the basic need to control the flow with good responsiveness to adjustment of the valve. What an electric pump can add is the failsafe feature of getting away from gravity feed and instead, lifting fuel from a lower tank. But I don't think a peristaltic pump can be used in series with a globe valve, as it could be pushing against a closed valve and would tend to burst the tube or its connectors. I'm not sure whether a pump can be used without a valve, and I don't fully understand how to control the simplest peristaltic pumps - just a potentiometer?

  • 01 Apr 2017 04:10
    Reply # 4705478 on 1195343
    Deleted user

    I think a peristaltic pump like David found is a good way to go.  I've used them in the lab a little bit and they can be made to deliver fluids at a reliable rate.  However, I never took one of those apart to see what they were using to drive the motor.  

    The nice part of the peristaltic pump is that it is leak proof and maintenance free.  It just uses cams that squeeze the hose shut and push the fluid along.  Here is a link to another version on e-bay that shows this more clearly.  On some versions you can change the size of the tubing you are using to change the rate they pump at.

    My first thought was to use an inexpensive DC-DC buck converter to drive the motor.  This would compensate for changes in the DC voltage of the boat and keep the motor speed constant.  However, I think there might be  a simpler route.

    Here is a link to a unit that might be plug and play.   If I've read the fine print on the AC-wall wort correctly, this is actually a 12V unit.  If I were attempting the conversion I think I would start with something like this.  It would be worth checking its flow with the ships engine running and with the engine off.  If the extra voltage from the alternator made it change rate, then it might be necessary to add an inexpensive DC-DC converter.

    Having said all that, we've had good luck with the regulator that came with our Dickinson Pacific stove and it doesn't require any electricity.

  • 01 Apr 2017 00:50
    Reply # 4705339 on 1195343

    Tiny pumps:

    Just for fun, I went looking on aliexpress. I found small solvent pumps that could probably handle oil. They're made for printers. The smallest I found was 50-60ml/minute, so you'd have to set up a circuit board to pulse it to ge the right flow, I guess. They're about five dollars each.

    Example: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/On-sales-outdoor-printer-3w-small-ink-pump/1627407282.html

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