junk-rigged scamp?

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  • 06 May 2021 20:29
    Reply # 10448771 on 10309125

    Capsize issue.

    How about having a wee sea anchor permanently rigged stored on the transom?

    Could be deployed from the water and will hold the bow to windward whilst you sort things out.

  • 06 May 2021 04:33
    Reply # 10446571 on 10309125

    The Aero-junk rig I had on little Gypsy Girl is about the right size for a SCAMP and the mast position would be about right as well.

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  • 06 May 2021 02:31
    Reply # 10446378 on 10309125

    Man, it’s getting deep on this post. Got to put my hip boots on. I think I managed one miraculous jump over the high side stay dry capsize recovery in my dinghy racing days. I weighed 140lbs and had forearms like Popeye at the time. The next time I tried it I went turtle.

    it’s cold here and blows hard, and I like to plane. So I dress for immersion in an open dinghy. The current boat I’m building is an OzGoose. I see no reason why it can’t plane with JR.The design planes with a western balanced lug. I look forward to sailing circles around a SCAMP fleet before running away on a planing reach. And capsize/ re-entry is twice as fast.

    in fairness the SCAMP is an excellent design, and as you can see on the official video you’d have to work hard to capsize it. But the freeboard does require some mechanism to get back in, for the average human. Another video demonstrates the side strap entry, quickly pulled into place from the water.

    I see no reason why JR would not be a good choice for a camp cruiser, and much easier to reef than a western balanced lug or sprit sail. Therefore safer, and much less likely to capsize. In my OzGoose my feet will be warming at my set up camp before a fire, second drink in hand long before the SCAMP arrives. Prettily, though, and at a handsome price... roughly eight times mine.


  • 19 Apr 2021 01:43
    Reply # 10326663 on 10309125

    Hi Howard, I have not tried a junk rig in an open dinghy but I have high hopes it will earn its keep and be worth it. Most times there should be plenty of time to reef and just carry the right amount of sail to be comfortable and safe. No sensible cruiser ever courts a capsize. Reducing sail is so easy to do with a junk rig. Things shouldn't normally get out of hand. If the situation changes very quickly, it ought to be possible to drop the whole lot - tidily - without having it wrapped and flapping around your ears. That's my expectation based on the slightly bigger rig on Serendipity.

    And don't forget - you can reef for safety sake without a second thought - because if instead the wind drops away, as it so often does - its just as quick to shake the reef out again. To me, this is the safety benefit of a junk rig, the incentive to make the right decision early, and yet no need to be conservatively under-canvassed either.

    You'll just have to try your kayak outrigger idea. A good general purpose dinghy might be better off without it, would be my expectation. How about two kayaks making a catamaran? That might be more fun.

    Last modified: 19 Apr 2021 01:51 | Anonymous member
  • 19 Apr 2021 01:15
    Reply # 10326629 on 10326317
    Anonymous wrote:

    Arne wrote: Boarding ladders on yachts.
    One thing did I learn by servicing radars around my airport: Climbing vertical, 12-15m tall  ladders is a lot harder than ladders with a 70-80° slope. Our arms are not made for climbing vertical ladders. Therefore, rope ladders hung over the side of a yacht will not help others than young and agile people. Rescuing ladders should therefore be made rigid and supported in such a way that it slopes, even if it looks less elegant.

    I can still manage to climb a vertical ladder (but not 15m, I'd get vertigo). What I can't do is get started when the first rung is at about neck level. I agree rope ladders (and stirrups) are better for the young and agile - the bottom rung of a rope ladder goes under the boat as soon as you put your feet on it and you are left hanging, with the prospect of climbing not just a vertical ladder but a ladder with negative slope. Especially if climbing over the side. Certainly better than nothing, but I am hoping rudder-mounted steps, with the first step under water (at end plate level) will let me emerge from the water in a dignified and gentlemanly  fashion. Can anyone reassure me?

    What a lot of dinghy lore is emerging from this thread and the other one. Another gem from David regarding boarding over the transom - though I think the transom would still be my first choice. Plenty of food for thought for the dinghy competition judges.

    The main take-out from all of this is that a capsize can happen, and it can quickly turn into a complete shambles. How ever we might work through it in thought, the reality can be very different, and sometimes you've just got to do what seems right at the time.


    I like your rudder steps... they should always be in the water.  Prevention seems the best policy, and it's one of the reasons I suggested for a fun knock around sailing dinghy that you would presumably use in a harbor away from home, the dinghy being your regular tender, that a kayak outrigger might be something to think about..... assuming you and the kids, or whoever want to explore the area in a small boat leaving the  mother ship anchored.   That little wooded bay that you got just a glimpse of when sailing in, or that motu behind the reef, etc.


    Presumably a mini junk rig would help head off a capsize by being able to reef instantly.... but not being a dinghy sailor, I don't know how quickly things get out of hand.  I would suspect it's usually a case of sailing the bleeding edge anyway.... courting capsize. 

                                                         H.W.


  • 19 Apr 2021 00:20
    Reply # 10326545 on 10309125

    Now THAT's a ladder for a gentleman (and a lady).

  • 18 Apr 2021 23:40
    Reply # 10326446 on 10309125
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    What about this, Graeme? It is more meant for yachts, though...

    Arne


    Last modified: 18 Apr 2021 23:45 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 18 Apr 2021 22:47
    Reply # 10326317 on 10309125

    Arne wrote: Boarding ladders on yachts.
    One thing did I learn by servicing radars around my airport: Climbing vertical, 12-15m tall  ladders is a lot harder than ladders with a 70-80° slope. Our arms are not made for climbing vertical ladders. Therefore, rope ladders hung over the side of a yacht will not help others than young and agile people. Rescuing ladders should therefore be made rigid and supported in such a way that it slopes, even if it looks less elegant.

    I can still manage to climb a vertical ladder (but not 15m, I'd get vertigo). What I can't do is get started when the first rung is at about neck level. I agree rope ladders (and stirrups) are better for the young and agile - the bottom rung of a rope ladder goes under the boat as soon as you put your feet on it and you are left hanging, with the prospect of climbing not just a vertical ladder but a ladder with negative slope. Especially if climbing over the side. Certainly better than nothing, but I am hoping rudder-mounted steps, with the first step under water (at end plate level) will let me emerge from the water in a dignified and gentlemanly  fashion. Can anyone reassure me?

    What a lot of dinghy lore is emerging from this thread and the other one. Another gem from David regarding boarding over the transom - though I think the transom would still be my first choice. Plenty of food for thought for the dinghy competition judges.

    The main take-out from all of this is that a capsize can happen, and it can quickly turn into a complete shambles. How ever we might work through it in thought, the reality can be very different, and sometimes you've just got to do what seems right at the time.

    Last modified: 18 Apr 2021 22:57 | Anonymous member
  • 18 Apr 2021 22:25
    Reply # 10326301 on 10309125

    It's quite common in raceboats these days to have a double bottom and an open transom, so that the water goes out as fast as it comes in. I don't know that I'd fancy that much fresh air in a camping boat, however.

    Was it in one of the capsize videos we've been watching recently, or in the DCA interview with John Welsford, that the danger of boarding over the stern was mentioned? If you're in the water holding onto the stern, your drag makes the bow turn away from the wind faster, the sails fill and the boat starts sailing. You're then trying to board a moving boat, making it more difficult still. That's why one of the SCAMP videos (I think it was) emphasised that it was safer to get in over the side, using a footrope. In the olden days, when racing dinghies needed a lot of bailing out after a capsize, it was taught by sailing schools that one crew should stay in the water and hold the bow while the other got in and bailed, for the same reason.  

  • 18 Apr 2021 21:18
    Reply # 10326119 on 10309125

    Howard, as David pointed out, if you are agile you can go over the bottom as the dinghy rolls, and bring it up again without getting your feet wet - with a bit of practice. And if doing a half-roll, put weight out on the horizontal board and scramble back in without having to get in the water. But its more of a stunt really, and only when single handed. You and/or any others present, will most likely end up in the water.

    As for remaining in the confines of the boat during a capsize - initially I thought that was where the "self-righting dinghy" idea was heading. Next thing we will be fitting seat belts.

    [If you tried climbing up onto the bottom of a knocked down Scamp, from within the boat, I think you might just pull it into the fully upside down position. That's just a guess. In any case, you will be wet already so probably easier to go round the outside. To do the climbing over the top trick, you have got to be in control of the capsize and a little bit ahead of events]. 

    I don't know about open transom, I suppose it would be easier to board if you had something to grab, but I have a vision of it disappearing into the distance, tend to lose things overboard enough as it is - and think maybe there are reasons why most boats have transoms. Good thought - it is good to think about these things - but I would pass on that idea, I think. I am planning to put climbing steps on my scow rudders, starting with the end plate, as it is the under-water step, usually not there, which makes it most difficult to get started (this remark applies to Arne's angle-out ladder too) - the rudder steps seem a good idea to me but I have never tried it yet.

    Last modified: 18 Apr 2021 22:30 | Anonymous member
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