David Thatcher's New Boat

  • 31 Oct 2018 10:23
    Reply # 6882176 on 6876461

    Clearly, a single mast needs to be well aft, or a pair of biplane masts need to be very low and light if well forward, with more latitude if they are further aft. All in all, it seems easiest to keep the stayed mast where it is designed to be. 

    Have you considered the Wharram pattern of wing sail, with a wrap around sail and a short gaff, plus a furling headsail? Designed for catamarans, after all's said and done. I wouldn't enjoy reefing it, but otherwise, I think I'd favour it over the gunter or flat-top bermudan.

  • 31 Oct 2018 04:49
    Reply # 6882005 on 6876461
    Deleted user

    Good to see all the interest and comments about my new catamaran, and I have had some direct contact about this as well, thank you all. We can always be sure of some good robust discussion and comment on the JRA forum.

    I thought I should explain a little more the difficulties, or stumbling blocks, to fitting a junk rig. If I were to fit a junk rig to the boat it should be an improvement on the designed rig, be safe, be practical, and enhance the boat in looks, performance, and ease of handling.

    Leeway Resistance The mast is placed in its current position above a reinforced bulkhead which also helps to divide up the accommodation space. The current, (single) dagger-board will be placed in its current position for reason of CLR, and the CE of the rig. I suspect the real reason it is raked forward as it is will be to allow the dagger-board case to exit through the sloping aft cabin bulkhead which allows for raising and lowering of the board from the cockpit. It is also possible to fit asymmetric lee-boards to the boat, these are mounted on the inside of the hulls under the bridge deck. Theoretically these could easily be moved forward to move the CLR forward. But there are some down sides to these lee-boards which include a lot of structure to support them which means more weight. There will be a lifting and lowering mechanism of some sort, and when sailing only one board should be down at a time. So, not as simple as the dagger-board.

    It would also be possible to fit mini keels as is done on many cruising catamarans, and I have thought about this quite a lot because this would also allow for moving the CLR forward. But disadvantages are increased draft, extra weight, and mini keels on a catamaran can induce, or amplify the pitching motion which multihulls can be prone to because of all the extra buoyancy the mini keels introduce in the middle of the boat. Mini keels also reduce windward performance, and rob boat speed compared to a boat fitted with a good dagger-board, So once again the dagger-board is a better solution.

    Mast Position When first thinking about a junk rig placing the mast further forward adjacent to bulkhead 2 seemed to obvious thing to do. But then when I studied the plans a lot more, and now I can see the hull shapes in 3D I realise that there is not a lot of load carrying ability in the forward sections of the hulls, they are very fine, which is no bad thing for this design. But that means that the load carrying portion of the hulls is from midships aft, which will also be a reason why the current rig is placed where it is. So placing a junk rig forward on the boat will put a lot of weight where it should not be.

    Junk Rig Options I have had a couple of good suggestions regarding use of a split rig which which could solve the CE problem. But with one of these rigs, or a single junk sail of 20 square meters we end up with a lot of sail area up high, because of the quadrilateral sail shape. I am not so sure that a lot of sail area up high is that healthy on a potentially quite tippy coastal catamaran. Paul MaKay's Aero Junk rig would just about fit as a single mast rig, and I have not discounted this. But the wishbone battens add quite a level of complexity, and would this be more simple and easy to handle than the designed rig? I am thinking about an Aero Junk bi-plane rig with a mast in each hull in about the same fore and aft position of the current rig, or may be a little further forward. This could be made to work with each sail about 10 square meters. This would potentially allow the CE of the rig to be far enough forward and the masts may not interfere too much with the accommodation.  I would also want the rig to look good. So I am playing with this idea a little bit.

    Anyway the above has been my thought process. It is all a lot of fun and it is great to have such a project to get involved in and work ideas around.

  • 30 Oct 2018 16:53
    Reply # 6879907 on 6876461
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Just a little warning:

    Before we start tearing someone's boat design apart and 'improve' it, it is worth remembering that the designer is most likely an intelligent person, and may have rational reasons for details in his design, as for instance the dagger-boards. It appears that these cats sail very well, so it is probably a good idea to stick closely to the original design.

    IMO one should wait with making improvements until one has gained experience with the real thing.

    Arne

    Last modified: 31 Oct 2018 07:53 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 29 Oct 2018 17:57
    Reply # 6878308 on 6876461

    Hi David,

    On multis things are a bit different as Ueli descrbes, CoE has to be straight over CLA.

    Canting the daggerboard a bit aft instead of forward as it is now and using a highly balanced sail, I am thinking of a softwing, with the mast in the original position could work IMO. If you move the board a bit more aft, and/or cant the mast forward you have even more room to get a match.

    I wouldn't write a junk off just yet.

    Rudolf  

  • 29 Oct 2018 13:43
    Reply # 6877864 on 6876461

    David, good to see a Cat with a Junk, go for it! 

    It looks like the junk sail mast could be pretty close in front of the standard mast,  you could then adjust the balance by fitting a skeg in each hull.  It would give better tracking, but may make tacking a bit more difficult.  For such a small Cat, moving crew weight will make a difference.   

  • 29 Oct 2018 11:34
    Reply # 6877792 on 6876461

    a catamaran might wear its sail(s) a bit further aft than a monohull.
    on monos, heeling brings the CE to the lee of the hull and generates weather helm. with a catamaran it's almost the opposite effect, as the lee hull will go deeper and therefore the CE will be on the weather side of the 'pressed' hull…

    ueli

    Last modified: 29 Oct 2018 17:33 | Anonymous member
  • 29 Oct 2018 07:10
    Reply # 6877552 on 6876461

    Hi David,

    the stumbling block, as I see it with regards to installing a junk rig in your new catamaran, is the center of lateral resistance of the hull. The designed sail plan has a center of effort well back in the hull. If the dagger board could be moved forward then a mast position adjacent to the bulkhead at the forward side of the cabin would be possible. This would involve a tabernacle  forward of the bulkhead in the chain locker, the bulkhead and the side walls of the chain locker would provide the support. The dagger board could be moved into the forward part of the head compartment which would hopefully move the CLR sufficiently forward to allow a junk sail in the new mast position. 

    Food for thought anyway.

    David

  • 29 Oct 2018 04:28
    Reply # 6877443 on 6876942
    Deleted user
    Annie Hill wrote:

    Ah, true, Arne.  Life can be cruel.  And we'll still welcome David at all our junkets!!
    Please can I still come, please please please?!

    Thanks for your comments everyone. I will keep on dreaming up possible junk rig solutions, but more importantly keep on gluing bits of wood together. My next target is to have the hull planking completed by the end of December. I find it best to have a target because that is what drives me to get energetic, (well,sort of energetic), and keep working on the project on my days off from work. I will keep posting updates now and then because even if it does not end up as a junk rig yacht it is nevertheless a boat building project, which like Annie's beautiful build may help or inspire others who might be thinking of doing something similar, or help them realise that it is a lot easier to go out and buy a ready made boat!



    Last modified: 29 Oct 2018 05:34 | Deleted user
  • 28 Oct 2018 22:55
    Reply # 6877159 on 6876461
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    One possible possibility could be to just plonk one JR  mast in one hull and sail with that single, offset sail. However, one should first ask someone with a biplane rig if they have tried to tack with only one sail up, and then hear from them if it worked. Maybe Pete Hill has tried that?

    Arne



    Last modified: 28 Oct 2018 22:56 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 28 Oct 2018 20:08
    Reply # 6876985 on 6876461

    I must admit that I can't see a way of doing a single-masted junk rig. A biplane rig, with two masts just forward of the accommodation and a low AR sailplan so that the masts are light, seems to be a faint possibility, but I can appreciate why the easiest thing is just to stay with the full battened gunter mainsail.

       " ...there is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing as simply messing about in junk-rigged boats" 
                                                               - the Chinese Water Rat

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