Damage to Arion's sail

  • 20 Nov 2015 06:49
    Reply # 3650443 on 3607013

    There has been a bit of a development with my new sail.  When my sailmaker, Ian, went to order the UV Dacron today he discovered Contender had accidentally quoted him on the non-UV protected product (standard Dacron), and the UV stuff will be substantially more expensive and we may not be able to get the small quantity we require.  Ian meanwhile has had a good look at Weathermax 80 and likes it.  It is a bit more stretchy than standard acrylic but has a "memory" and always returns to its original shape.  Also, Contender guarantee the material for 5 year of continuous exposure to the sun, which is impressive.  It appears to be more than strong enough, especially for a flat sail.  So the choice becomes standard Dacron and religious use of a sail cover, or Weathermax 80.

    I have decided to stick with standard Dacron and traditional sailmaking methods. I lack confidence in asking Ian to build a sail from material neither of us has experience with.  If I was building it myself and happy to accept a bit of puckering of the seams etc, I might give it a go but the cost of the Weathermax material and the Dacron are equal.  People report issues with puckering of Weathermax seams (maybe just their technique?) and needing to pin the seams together onto pieces of backing ply (nothing it seems sticks to Weathermax, so forget double-sided tape) and stapling the seams together.  Once again, perhaps this is just a matter of knowing better techniques.  Anyway, I know exactly what I will get with the Dacron sail, and will be able to trust it better, being a conservative type, and Ian is much happier with the project too.

    Last modified: 20 Nov 2015 10:18 | Anonymous member
  • 19 Nov 2015 18:25
    Reply # 3649549 on 3607013

    I hadn't heard of Weathermax 80, so I looked it up. These links may be of interest:

    http://www.safetycomponents.com/Downloads/

    WeatherMAX/Fabrication_Manual_2014.pdf


    http://www.rochfordsupply.com/shop/

    Textiles/Marine_and_Boat_Cover/Weathermax(TM)_80/index.html


    http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f55/sunbrella-vs-weathermax-95758.html

    The yarn is made by Unifi Inc, and I found this on their website:

    "SATURA® is a family of solution dyed polyester yarns available in a wide range of colors. SATURA® has superior color consistency, light fastness characteristics and is bleach cleanable. Because SATURA® is solution dyed, additional fabric dyeing processes are eliminated, reducing the product's environmental footprint. For enhanced product performance, SATURA® Max is available."

    Its price at Rochford Supply is similar to that of Mustang. It frays (so does acrylic), and needs felled or french seams, or hot-knife cutting. It appears to be softer and more stretchy than other cloths.


    Last modified: 19 Nov 2015 19:06 | Anonymous member
  • 19 Nov 2015 09:10
    Reply # 3647819 on 3607013

    Talking to the sailmaker who is building my new sail has been interesting.  He points out that polyester cloth will degrade completely after three years of constant exposure to UV light.  Treated polyester will last only one extra year.  Given that Odyssey is protected only on one side, it is in effect the same as untreated Dacron.  Even Topgun won't survive too long if stowed without sailcovers, it seems.  Acrylic cloth has much better UV resistance and Contender Sailcoth have a very interesting acrylic product called Weathermax 80 that has twice the strength and six times the abrasion resistance as standard acrylic, but it costs as much as Dacron.  It does have superior UV resistance however and although it can stretch, it will return to its original shape, unlike standard acrylic.

    Also, the maximum strength of basic woven polyester cloth runs parallel to the fabric as it comes off the roll and has much less strength across the material.  Thus, sails built with horizontally cut panels are relying heavily on their tabling and boltropes.  Whether this is enough when you are sailing in gale-force winds in the open sea, as I often do, and the entire sail is stretching between battens, is an unknown factor.  I don't know whether my sail damage is caused by UV degradation or stress, so the diagnosis is left open.

    I have chosen to build a new sail from 7oz Dimension Polyant UV resistant (coated) Dacron.  It will have triple stitched vertical seams and a very heavy leach tabling.  The sail is basically the same profile as my black sail, with 400mm shorter hoist, to give me more drift in the halyard blocks.  Only the top three, fanned panels have a little camber to give the head of the sail increased drive.  The lower four, parallel panels are flat-cut.  I decided this sort of basic, bullet-proof sail best suits my purposes, cruising style, boat and personality, but I will continue to watch and applaud those who choose to push the boundaries and experiment with other options.

  • 19 Nov 2015 00:42
    Reply # 3646608 on 3607013
    Deleted user

    Looking at what's happened so far I don't see any point to using any of the awning fabrics over proper dacron sail cloth. It costs the same or more than dacron. Awning stuff has no UV protection advantage, Graham's was covered after the first year (only one year to wreck it?). The only other advantage left was the fact awning cloth came in wider dimensions than the 90cm of dacron. Quick and easy to make whole panels. But that is out the window since horizontal cut is a no-no, (this is not about vertical cut seams stopping a tear from progressing, it just tears easier).

    Design it with a bolt rope, yes I get that Arne. Even seat belt webbing (which for awhile was promoted over rope) failed on Arion. The only success recorded for awning cloth has been on 1/ flat sails and 2/ as cambered sail, occasional daysailing up in the Arctic circle. 

    Problem is, we didn't know we were 'experimenting' as we hammered our boat night and day 4,000 miles through the tropics.

    Last modified: 19 Nov 2015 00:44 | Deleted user
  • 18 Nov 2015 23:18
    Reply # 3646515 on 3607013
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Even the 'lightwight' Duradon appears to be 450g/sqm, or around 13oz, so is in the Topgun class. In addition it is only 61cm/2' wide, so that would call for a lot of sewing. I have used it when sewing a jib for a mate. It was lovely to work with, but as a sailcloth ot was quite soft. The softness would be no problem when making a junksail from it, but I would not use it unless the sail was 50sqm or larger. It is simply too heavy for smaller sails.

    Arne

    http://www.britishmillerain.com/products/duradon 

  • 18 Nov 2015 19:24
    Reply # 3641850 on 3607013
    Duradon was very popular about twenty years ago, because it has the virtues that David mentions.  However, even the lightweight version is pretty heavy. 

    Top Gunn also seems to stand the pace: Kurt's sails are pretty old, but again, they are flat.

    Personally, I'm going back to acrylic - there are several manufacturers apart from Sunbrella that aren't as expensive.  Although Badger had flat sails, we got 80,000 miles out of the first set, in all climates.  However, I intend to spend a lot of time making a scale model sail and working on it until it hangs without creases of its own accord with the YHP and halyard and, possibly, some standing luff parrels.

    I do think Arne has a point (well, he has a lot of good points to make!) about the sun damage.  We Antipodeans are not only at relatively low latitudes, we also have the hole in the ozone layer (still there, if reducing) passing over us quite regularly.  But if Odyssey has proved to be disappointing, it's all part of the learning process and one has to ask how many other sails would have stood being out in all weathers without a sail cover?

    It would be great if we put some more research into finding an alternative fabric, but it is rather horses for courses, as ever: flat or camber/latitude/type of sailing/ease of sewing/expense.


  • 18 Nov 2015 18:32
    Reply # 3641761 on 3607013
    Deleted user

    The original sail on Footprints was made of 'DURADON' which is a polyester canvas. Duradon is very resistant to rot, both from the sun and water and is used in sails as well as other canvas products. They do a lightweight as well as a heavy weight cloth. It is a stretchy fabric but that may not be a disadvantage for junk sails. So it seems like it might be a possible alternative for our junk sails. If anyone is interested a simple Google search will find information on the fabric.

  • 18 Nov 2015 11:13
    Reply # 3640967 on 3607013
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    When I wrote about how to construct a cambered panel sail, I slowly and clearly spelled out why such a sail needs a strong non-stretch boltrope, either of pre-stretched rope or from thick seatbelt webbing. Still, it seems that some who make cambered panel sails, simply drop the boltrope, or use a thin one, thinking that some tabling will do in stead. It will not. The tabling, normally being of the same material as the sail, will simply stretch too much. The idea with adding a tabling is rather to make the edges heavier and stiffer to keep them from fluttering.

    I repeat; if only sailcloth tabling is used, instead of a non-stretch boltrope, the sailcloth near the edges will have a much harder time than it was meant to have.

    Now I just checked a piece of Odyssey: Its stiffness (not that stiff) is about the same in both main directions. However, it is no good when teared diagonally. It is simply not a sailcloth. That worries me very little. Remember, when watching photos of the Hong Kong schooners, the cloth they used was probably not half as strong as our synthetic cloth, even the Odyssey, but they still managed. The integrity of these sails mainly sits in the boltrope, battens and Hong Kong parrels, which take most of the loads.

    It may well be that the Odyssey is not that good for use under the tropic sun, but in my waters, at 59° north, it appears to do fine. I think that any sun-proof (and rot-proof) cloth, with some chafe resistance will do. Diagonal stiffness of the cloth, as needed on western sails, makes little sense in junksails.

    Conclusion
    Make your sails with a serious boltrope (rope or webbing), plus tabling for serious offshore work, and also make sure that the sheetlets and parrels are attached to the boltrope  or battens, and not to the sailcloth (as PJR recommends). The only corner I would bother with giving a (2-3 layer) patch would be the throat corner, which is quite busy, with lots of shear forces until the parrels are set up properly. In addition, don’t use metal eyelets, with their ultra-high point-loading. It is much better with hoops from webbing, which spreads the load.

    That’s my opinion, at least.
    Cheers, Arne

    PS: If real sailcloth with diagonal stiffness were important for the set of a junk sail, then Samson, here, could never spread her cheapo nylon sails, year after year, like this:

    Last modified: 18 Nov 2015 15:27 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 18 Nov 2015 06:46
    Reply # 3640333 on 3607013
    Deleted user

    We had a look at Graham’s black Odyssey III sail yesterday. The top panel has converted itself to paper. Not only does it rip easily from the tear, but i was able with my bare hands, to pull it apart in a non torn section in the middle of the panel. The red sails on Ashiki are beginning to look suspect too, they are roughly one year younger in usage than Graham’s. Two years old now, I wonder if they will see out four.. 

    Seems to me in the JRA, there was a dramatic overestimation of this boat awning fabric. It doesnt stand up to any kind of long term point stress of cambered sails. We have a tear in the foresail top panel, which is stressed by the Luff Hauling parrel, a diagonal/shearing stress which, as Arne has pointed out, Odyssey doesnt like at all.

    For the time being, rather than going to the time and expense of making a new suit of sails (like Graham is), we plan to sew seat belt webbing on luff and leeches (already has 120mm tabling), and on top of that add a bolt rope. Taking care to tension the bolt rope relieving the Odyssey as much as possible. I have a roll of 6mm pre stretched braid which should do the job, or may even use the 12mm silver rope sitting in the stern locker.

    It appears the cambered sails (and I still do like cambered sails) impart a totally different stress profile than that of flat sails. Cambered have stresses concentrating in a few spots. And to peak the yard with the luff parrel, you are shearing the top panel’ luff in half! I dont really see how a bolt rope is going to remove that stress. Just bulk reinforcement is the only answer.

    Add to that the revelation, from Graham’s sailmaker, that all dacron cloth (of which Odyssey is a type) is strong in only ONE direction, the direction it comes off the role. Thus sails are supposed to be vertical cut. Horizontal cut, panel by panel as we did, was totally the wrong way to go.

    In future, and it will be sooner than we like, a new suit will need to be sewn up. I don’t think we’ll use any kind awning fabric again. 

  • 06 Nov 2015 20:40
    Reply # 3620675 on 3607013

    Hi Arne,

    Thanks for your comments.  They make sense.  My black sail has a 75mm wide tabling along the luff and leech, with a 25mm seatbelt webbing folded over the edge.  Obviously this has not been enough, especially with a light and stretchy material like Odyssey.  Also, the entire sail was straight stitched, despite being made by a professional sailmaker (who usually makes beautiful sails), because he said his machines did not like the Odyssey material (he said it gummed them up).  I suspect both these things have contributed to too much stretch in the sail.  I first realised something wasn't right when the throat tore on the first outing, and so I beefed up the throat and peak reinforcing patches.  Then, bit by bit, all the eyelets started pulling out and I have been forever sewing reinforcing around them.  Now of course, the whole upper part of the sail has given up.

    Today I am bending on my flat sail and will just potter around with it this summer. I loved the performance of my cambered sail and will miss it dearly.  I'd like to think I get another cambered sail but because of my circumstances, I am not able to build it myself.  If I was going to pay someone else to build it for me I'd want to be really sure I got something that was strong enough.  As you have said before, most sailmakers don't understand this sort of sail.  Chris Scanes builds nice-looking cambered sails out of Dacron and I think they are likely to be good quality construction, though I don't have any references  from people who have pushed them hard in the open ocean, as I did with my black sail.

    Anyway, I am not ready yet to commit to a new sail, so will just make do for now.  Because I am having health issues at the moment, I intend to just potter around this summer, though I still need a strong sail, as yesterday's unpredicted, violent thunderstorms showed!

       " ...there is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing as simply messing about in junk-rigged boats" 
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