Annie Hill wrote:

  Have you not considered Shoehorn, David?
Yes, I have often looked at Shoehorn and do like her but I would like a different hull shape in the stern and lighter construction, maybe I should talk to Gary!

 

I specifically told David that I don't want a boat that planes and don't like sailing fast!  You never know, I might get the guts to sail down to Stewart I and in that case, I would want to be sure that the boat would look after me rather than the other way round.

I knew I would get a comment on this!! Probably I am looking at a boat for Hauraki Gulf and Northland coastline cruising and would like to be able to cover the long stretches such as Bream Bay as fast as possible

   

David Thatcher wrote:

I have been following this forum thread for a while now, and ... I thought I would put in a few comments. I have been thinking of a smaller boat for a while now, thinking forward to the time when Footprints is too big for me ... My current boat 'Footprints' is a Gary Underwood 10m cruising yacht ...

Have you not considered Shoehorn, David?

I have been having a look at the plans David Tyler has been producing and very much like what I see, maybe because I can see a bit of an Underwood influence in there. So my thoughts:

• Hull construction material - definitely sheet plywood for ease of building. The only thing I don't like about plywood is that we start off with beautiful flat and smooth sheets, then we cut them and glue them and do all sorts of things to destroy the surface, and then spend many hours filling and fairing and sanding to get the smooth sheet back again. I hate sandpaper! So what I would like is a design where one was able to construct full length hull panels and do all the fiber-glassing and pre-finishing with the panel on the flat, and then assemble the boat using stitch and glue techniques, and not even try and disguise the fiberglass tape at the joins.

The plan would be to scarf the plywood in full-length sections and then rope in the odd bod to help lift them onto the already-set up bulkheads, before stitching them into place  You would then glue and tape them.  You could certainly do a lot of pre-finishing with this method, and while there might be some filling and fairing, it wouldn't be a great deal.

• Hull profile - I like what David has drawn including the raised topsides. For me I would prefer a plumb bow and waterline length the same as overall length, but that is just a personal preference.

I like a bit of overhang at the bow for anchor work: you don't batter the bow quite as much.

•  I think the profile as drawn could look a bit boxy at the stern so I would extend the cockpit seats slightly outboard of the hull just to separate the raised bulwark aft from the hull so as to make a break in the lines - does that make sense?

If I were to build the boat, I'd put a fairly substantial rubbing strake under the windows (which are yet to be shown on the 'drawings').  This has a number of advantages: protects the topsides when going alongside, provides a spray deflector and breaks up the possibly boxy appearance of the boat as well as enabling one to create as much apparent sheer as takes one's fancy.

• Hull form - In my next boat I really want a boat which will plane readily both reaching and downwind so does that mean more flat on the hull bottom and a wider stern sections as per so many of the modern designs? I want more fun factor in my next boat and I like sailing fast.

I specifically told David that I don't want a boat that planes and don't like sailing fast!  You never know, I might get the guts to sail down to Stewart I and in that case, I would want to be sure that the boat would look after me rather than the other way round.

• Draft as shallow as possible, (Footprints is 1 meter). I like the idea of the ballast being in an external shoe and with bilge dagger boards, or maybe asymmetric lee boards external to the hull? I don't like hinging centerboards, I have had very bad experiences with them. 
  

We are definitely in accord on this one!

• There has been some discussion about deck construction, like Annie I agree that a ply/foam/ply deck can be difficult to successfully build for an amateur. I think I would like to duplicate the arrangement on Footprints, that is an inner layer of fore and aft tongue and groove planking painted an off white colour inside which looks very pleasant, with a layer of plywood and fiberglass over the top.

You will see that David has made an alternative suggestion to the foam sandwich below.

• Cockpit - I like the platform style cockpit on Footprints which is really a large aft deck surrounded by raised bulwarks and with only a very small foot well. This has been a real feature on Footprints providing a very spacious cockpit area and also providing room for a double sleeping cabin with very large double berth under the cockpit. So that is the style of cockpit I would prefer on my next boat, but David's design could I imagine be easily modified to provide this. Maybe there would be enough space for a double berth under the cockpit.

I don't want an extra berth, double or otherwise, but I do want stowage And I like a cockpit where I can sit out of the wind.  I think you'd find that there's quite a lot of room under the cockpit in David's design, but I do like a footwell for comfortable steering.  Shoehorn has that extra double berth, David ;-)

• Companionway. Unlike Annie I don't mind a sliding hatch, and the arrangement with Footprints with the sliding hatch and solid dodger over the companionway, (which is mostly windows), has worked well. But sliding hatches are a lot of work to build, but I was thinking that the wedge shape arrangement David has drawn could be extended higher and longer to provide a small area of greater headroom

Of course, David is designing a boat for a hobbit.

•  and with windows to provide light to the interior and for lookout. 

My acrylic inset and pramhood.  Pramhoods are like junk rig: you don't know how good they are until you've lived with one.

• Ideally it should extend up to 300mm aft of the actual companionway opening to provide a bit more weather protection to the opening.

There is a small canopy incorporated in the design, but not as big as you suggest.

• . I quite like the idea of having opening doors with windows at the companionway rather than washboards but have never figured out a way to do it.

I reckon my 'folding washboard' arrangement solves this quite nicely.

• Agree with Annie that all control lines should lead to the aft end of the cabin top. We have this arrangement on Footprints with one winch which is used for halyard and LHP.
  

One winch for the halyard, yes: I am hoping to eradicate the (what I feel are) excessive loads on the LHP.

• These lines and winch are at an easy working height when standing either side of the companionway.
• Interior - double berth, usable galley with electric refrigeration (small to keep the tonic water cold!), table, settee, double berth and enclosed head, sufficient storage under berths. 
• Outboard engine as auxiliary is a given. The 9.9hp Yamaha high thrust outboard in a well on Footprints has been very successful over a range of conditions and situations - I no longer wish for an inboard diesel. I think that the arrangement David has shown for the outboard installation should work well and is very practical. There would need to be locker space for 2 x 12 liter fuel tote tanks. A 6 hp four stroke motor should be sufficient. I would want my boat to be such a good sailing boat that the motor is only used for berthing, and calm conditions when there is little or no wind, so possible cavitaion of the prop should not ever be an issue. It very rarely has been on Footprints even with the motor just slightly inboard of the transom.

We are in accord here, too.  I might add that it's not the boat's performance that generally dictates when the engine is turned on, but the skippers.  Plenty of boats with only moderate performance don't resort to the engine the moment they can no longer head towards their destination or the speed drops below 4 kt.

• Battery charging - there needs to be space for about 200 watts of solar panels, and/or maybe a wind generator on the stern. This will provide plenty of power for LED lighting, chest type electric fridge, and navigation and entertainment needs.

200 w solar panel is my criterion.  I'm not sure about a fridge: it's nice for the greens and the beer in summer - especially as shops are in fairly short supply in my cruising ground - and unnecessary in winter.  That being so I might go for a small chest fridge, wrap it in extra foam, set the thermostat to 10 degrees and just plug it in.  Or maybe not. 

• Rig - I like the medium aspect sail option and would prefer Footprints had this rather than my current fan shaped low aspect sail, but on Footprints I am limited by a shortish mast.

I’ve reworked the cockpit, in line with Annie’s predilections, and a “perspective" view of it is now at http://www.junkrigassociation.org/Sys/PublicProfile

/2757889/PhotoAlbums/38135030.

To put some numbers on it:

Inside height of companionway - 1060mm. Annie, please compare with Fantail’s and let me know.

A: OK, inside height of companionway (from folded 'washboards' to framing at centreline) is 765mm. 

Cockpit sole to top of companionway - 1300mm. You will be able to see over it while standing at the helm. Ditto. 

A: 1230 mm.  I don't think another 70mm is going to make any difference there.

Easy to adjust both heights.  I was originally thinking of a long shaft OB, for 20in transom, and that was what set the cockpit sole height. Now I’ve lowered it, and the OB will be a standard shaft for 15in transom. Cockpit sole 200mm above DWL at aft end.

A: Of course, the question on every lip is: will a 15 in transom be sufficient?  (I'm glad I'm not the only one who slides seamlessly from metric to imperial and back again!) But now, that we have the bridgedeck, I think the answer to that question should be yes.  And, indeed, when one is sailing, the outboard leg will probably be quite an effective breakwater. 

Cockpit seats 450mm above sole.

A: Mine are a comfortable 330mm.  In order to see over the side decks I use a cushion that raises them to 420mm, but if it gets rough, I need to get lower again in order to brace myself.  The measurement from my heel to the back of my knee joint is only 400mm, so I think 420mm might be too high for this hobbit (especially as I don't have the big feet!) I think I would be inclined to bring the cockpit sole back up to compensate for that, even if it does mean buying a long-shaft outboard.  Of course, that would reduced the companionway to 940mm, assuming the bridge deck height stayed the same.  But as that is still 18mm more than I have now, I could probably live with that.  Or we could lower the bridge deck to, say, 150mm (especially as we have now increased the transom height again)? 

Bridge deck added, at half of that height. An easy step up. Stowage for halyard tail etc.

A: That looks great.  I like it a lot.

Wedge-shaped addition to deck, that can take a pramhood. A loose closer for the pramhood? You can not be serious, man! Worse than a loose washboard.

A: No, it wasn't loose.  It would be secured to arms either side so that you could lift it forward or swing it aft again.  However, I'm not wedded to the idea, especially as you suggest:

This wedge can accommodate a slide, which will drain forward and out of holes in the side.

A: And there is no reason why this slide could not be of acrylic, for more light?  (I'd like quite a lot of varnish down below, but realise that without plenty of natural light, this could be a mistake.)

Top of wedge overhangs bulkhead by 110mm.

A: Mine is 250mm,( but that is to compensate for the raked cabin back.  Now that makes it easier to get in and out with my paltry 765 clearance, but with your 1060 I'll just about be able to walk down!) I think 110 mm should keep the rain out when head to wind or if it's calm.  I really like these little canopies :-)

Height from seat to sheer at forward end of cockpit - 406mm. You should be able to step up to the deck easily.

A: Mine's about 390 to the side deck and then a further 230 or so up to the cabin top.  However, yours scores big time because it means I will be able to see easily over the cabin without the wretched cushion!  (I pay a big price for my friends being able to stand up on Fantail!)

Height from seat to sheer at aft end of cockpit - 665mm. You should be able to nestle at aft end, glass in hand, out of the wind but able to see all around.

A: Ah, you know me too well. Same as mine at its outboard side.  I can, and do, sit there a lot while others duck and dive.  Pity my tall friends.

OK, we could use two layers of 6mm on beams. They look nice, if exposed, but actually are a throwback to longitudinal planked decks. With decks of sheet materials, it makes more practical sense to use longitudinal stringers resting on the bulkheads.

A: Yes, of course stringers make more sense.  I'm afraid I'm a bit brainwashed by Badger, but the design called for (and we used) two fore and aft stringers.  We added the deck beams as belt and braces.  When the boat was crushed by a steel tug in Uruguay, one of the hanging knees cracked where it joined the deckhead, which makes me feel that they were perhaps a Good Thing.  But I admit that I might be going over the top here. 

I like your plan of building from the inside out. That’s what I tried to get them to do on Tystie, but didn’t win the day. They chose to do it the hard way, adding the lining last.

So: 

3mm ply headlining (underside brought to as near to finished as possible), laid down on the bulkheads and as many temporary formers as needed, a central 4ft sheet and then more to make up the width.

60 x 30mm stringer, 2ft off the centreline, with groove routed on its underside for cabin lighting cables.

More smaller stringers, at intervals to be decided.

Insulation between stringers, 25mm extruded polystyrene house insulation.

Blocking instead of insulation in way of mast and deck fittings.

A central 4ft sheet of 6mm ply, to land its edge on the stringers. More to make up the width.

A second layer of 6mm ply, butting its inner edges on the centreline. More to make up the width.

Removable wooden cover strip over cable groove.

Graham Cox wrote:
I'm feeling a bit shy about expressing an opinion here, with only 3000 miles coastal cruising under junk rig, so take this with a grain of salt.  I think a cambered "Pugwash" sail will be very effective in light airs, if all the panels have well-developed camber.  This is the sort of sailing one mostly does when day-sailing, but I find the 3 top panels of Arion's sail, which are fanned and have a high-peaked yard, with little camber in them, very effective as a storm sail. 

However, from what I know of David and from my own preferences, we would go for graduated camber in the sail, with the greatest at the bottom to a near-flat or entirely flat top panel, as in Fantail's sail.  His new sail plan doesn't have many panels and by the time we've finished thrashing it out, it could well end up rather different from this current suggestion.  David is presently on retreat in a quiet anchorage where he can get on with working on Tystie's rig, but will no doubt address your comment when he is back on line.

Arne Kverneland wrote:

High-peaking yard and the forces in the Throat Hauling Parrel (THP)

My experience with high-peaking yards on my own boats, is that it depends. On Johanna the THP tension is quite high (but no need for winches.). For a good while, I thought that it was because of the low aspect ratio, AR, of her sail (48sqm/AR1.87). With Broremann’s sail (10sqm/AR2.15) and that of Frøken Sørensen (20sqm/AR1.95) the THP tension is fairly light. My hunch is now that the tension in the THP is more a function of the position of the halyard’s slingpoint on the yard, than of the sail’s AR. On both Broremann and FS I attached the halyard about 5% aft of the midpoint (on Johanna; on the midpoint). I guess this helps to peak up the yard with less strain on the THP. I will look closer on this when rigging Ingeborg (35sqm/AR1.90) this spring, to find the optimum attachment point of the halyard.

Cheers,
Arne

PS: All the mentioned boats have 70° yard peaking.