New sails for Tammy Norie

  • 24 Sep 2017 05:31
    Reply # 5276523 on 3075356
    I'm posting some 'Humble opinions about yards' in another topic...

    Kurt



  • 23 Sep 2017 19:31
    Reply # 5276149 on 5275916
    Arne Kverneland wrote:

    issues like this about the yard should be dealt with when you are to rig the sail.

    I would prefer to think about the weight of the yard before I build it. Is that unconventional? :)

    A moderate spreading of the halyard (over 50cm?), will also reduce the point load on the yard. I take care to not drill any holes in the yard near the sling points, these days. I only lash the blocks or halyard end to the yard.

    I replaced my yard bail with a dyneema lashing after it broke crossing the North Sea. I don't see any reason not to use a lashing. I'm using more and more dyneema soft shackles, since I can just make them when I need them.

    Have you got hold of a sewing machine yet?

    Yes, I have a strong machine with a good zig-zag stitch, serviced by some very nice people in Eastleigh.

  • 23 Sep 2017 15:57
    Reply # 5275916 on 3075356
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Richard,

    issues like this about the yard should be dealt with when you are to rig the sail. A moderate spreading of the halyard (over 50cm?), will also reduce the point load on the yard. I take care to not drill any holes in the yard near the sling points, these days. I only lash the blocks or halyard end to the yard.

    Have you got hold of a sewing machine yet?

    Arne

  • 23 Sep 2017 15:26
    Reply # 5275891 on 5275873
    Arne Kverneland wrote:

    One should remember that the halyard forces needed to stretch a gaff sail into shape is much higher than that needed to keep a 7-panel junk sail from turning into a big bag.

    Arne


    I certainly hope so! And yet our yards are still quite heavy. I'm wondering whether I can reduce the yard size (and weight aloft) by spreading the load along the yard using other methods. I mentioned your aluminium braced yard earlier, and my idea for bracing with sailcloth (also had by David Tyler) or dyneema. Spreading the purchases seems economical. It might chafe or snag in some way I haven't thought of.
  • 23 Sep 2017 15:08
    Reply # 5275873 on 3075356
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    One should remember that the halyard forces needed to stretch a gaff sail into shape is much higher than that needed to keep a 7-panel junk sail from turning into a big bag.

    Arne

  • 23 Sep 2017 14:37
    Reply # 5275836 on 5076021
    David Tyler wrote:

    I've wondered about that top triangle, too (years ago), but never tried it on a junk sail, only on a wing sail. There may be some mileage in it, with the kind of geometry that you've sketched. The "yard" would be just another batten, stronger than the normal batten but not so strong as the normal yard. There would need to be a hauling parrel working on the head of the sail.


    I was looking at the rigging of a gaff yawl and noticed that the halyard purchases were spread out. That made me wonder why we don't do this in order to brace the yard: https://flic.kr/p/XKEswg
  • 23 Sep 2017 09:02
    Reply # 5275655 on 3075356
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Richard,

    I cannot tell accurately how much the centre of pressure, CP, in the sail moves when going from flat to cambered. My half-informed guess from the work on Malena, back in 1994, is that the CP may move 2-5% of the wl. forward.

    Actually, Malena is the only boat I have owned with both a flat junksail, and then 3-4 with camber. The first version with camber (NL 24) was made with hinged battens added to the original sail. Since the aerofoil of that sail was symmetric, the weather helm increased (moderately) compared to with flat sail (and with the BR). This led me to assume that the CP moves back and forth with the max camber point of the sail (generally speaking). However, the CP moves around quite dynamically during sailing. It moves forward with decreasing angle of attack, AOA. As we bear away without easing the sheet, the AOA is increased and the CP moves aft, with increased weather helm as a result. This is actually quite helpful in making a boat keep the course in steady winds, with the tiller locked. This movement of the CP is much stronger in a flat sail than in a cambered one. I guess you have experienced, just as I did, that it can be difficult to tack because the sail gives such a strong lee helm as you head up.

    Making the sail.
    Making a sail with camber cannot be said to be experimental these days. I therefore suggest you save time and head-scratching and just sew a new sail using the quick amateur method B on assembling the panels. No need for re-inventing the wheel. You have plenty of other odd jobs waiting: Get that outboard engine out of the water, and possibly improve the rudder, or build a new one later.

    So just hurry up and build that new sail  -  that is plain sailing.

    Arne

     


  • 22 Sep 2017 22:31
    Reply # 5275415 on 5275399
    Arne Kverneland wrote:Just remember that if you copy your present sail, but with cambered panels in it, any weather helm will be quite a bit reduced, at least if you place the max camber point forward of the middle.
    Yes indeed. I'm looking forward to that too. One of the reasons I made the rake adjustable was in case I overdo it.

    I certainly hope to put the camber forward, as it is on a wing. If my tied-hybrid system works I'll be able to experiment with it. I'm quite likely to make a prototype sail out of polytarp and taped hinges and can try various positions. What do you recommend?

    What is your estimate of how far forward the CE moves on a cambered sail?

    I'm sure these points have been discussed before, so feel free to point me at other threads. I keep finding valuable information but it takes a lot of digging.

    I suggest you look up newsletter 30, p.21 about my Malena's first sail with designed in camber in the panel.

    I will read that next. Thanks!

    Edit: I have read it before in fact, but forgotten where it was. The reference is very useful to me and anyone else following along.


    Last modified: 22 Sep 2017 22:42 | Anonymous member
  • 22 Sep 2017 22:12
    Reply # 5275399 on 3075356
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Richard

    Just remember that if you copy your present sail, but with cambered panels in it, any weather helm will be quite a bit reduced, at least if you place the max camber point forward of the middle.

    I suggest you look up newsletter 30, p.21 about my Malena's first sail with designed in camber in the panels.

    Arne

  • 22 Sep 2017 20:34
    Reply # 5275329 on 3075356

    I managed to sail for a couple of hours today in Portsmouth Harbour with the new mast rake, but there was only a F3 wind and it wasn't very consistent, so I can't really draw any conclusions yet. That will have to wait until I can make some longer tacks. Hopefully soon.

       " ...there is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing as simply messing about in junk-rigged boats" 
                                                               - the Chinese Water Rat

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