Another write up by Arne Kverneland

  • 12 Aug 2018 14:47
    Reply # 6519000 on 869421
    I'd take either variety of junk rig and be thrilled with it I suspect, I like how both look, ease of manufacture, simplicity, and ridiculous amounts of square footage are all appealing hallmarks of the junk rig.

    The more styles of junk rig there are the more people will find something that ticks all their boxes, which could mean more junk rig conversions, and more people thinking about how to make them better, that's the recipe that created the junk rig in the first place.


    With that said, I'll probably go with an aero junk, at least partly because all the complicated parts are done in wood and not on a sewing machine :)

    Bill

    Last modified: 12 Aug 2018 15:36 | Anonymous member
  • 12 Aug 2018 14:44
    Reply # 6518951 on 869421

    Another way of assembling sail panels and pockets - like Arne's method, this can be done in a small room, but with a much better result.

  • 12 Aug 2018 11:32
    Reply # 6514980 on 869421

    When I decided to go JR on Redwing there was very little information out that was easy to find. I had read Annie's book and soon after I borrowed a copy PJR from a friend. I scoured the net for information, photos and videos and I discovered the Yahoo group. By that stage I was leaning towards the Fennix rig because I liked the fan sail. It may have been Arne who pointed out the problems with the rig I don't know but I then discovered Arne's work on cambered sails. Victor Winterhun designed a rig for me based on Arne's work and using Arne's methods, apart from batten sleeves (wishing I had used them) I built my sail. It has given me some very spirited sailing and a few heart in mouth moments to when I was overpowerd...don't forget to reef.

    I like my sail.

    Since then there has been a lot of work done, split rig sails, David Tyler's fan sails and wing sails. And I have really enjoyed reading about David's sail R&D, not to mention his travels.

    There are still people more than happy with there HM flat cut sails but it was Arne who came up with a simple method of putting camber into panels

    As for damage, I broke a yard but that was rot and a built in weakness and I've slightly bent an alloy batten but that was being over canvassed.

  • 12 Aug 2018 11:18
    Reply # 6514688 on 869421
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    I have read variations of this proverb, many times:

    If it looks good, it is good.

    This was often said in connection with the Spitfire WW2 fighter, in contrast to the more angular Hurricane. However, the sweet lines of the Spit came at a price: It was terribly difficult to mass-produce, much unlike the Hurricane.

    I guess I am in the Hurricane league (with an uprated engine, please). Simplicity of construction and servicing is important to me, as well as performance.

    Back to junk sails:
    It appears that David Tyler and I disagree about two main points; the planform and the way the batten panels should be sewn together.

    I simply think my version of the H-M planform, with its 3-panel top section, is great. It gives the longest luff length for a given mast height, and it reefs well. I have no structural problems with it, and will stick to it.

    As for my preferred way of sewing the panels to each other (Amateur Method B, see Chapter 5), I have mostly argued for it because it is so simple to make, but there is more to it than that:

    ·         This method does away with the need for a big space for sewing it. If the sail were to be put together the ‘proper’, sailmaker’s way, one would need at least one batten length table (or floor) space on each side of the sewing machine. In practice, this means that many people would have to move outside or rent/borrow a bigger place for the job.

    ·         The Amateur Method B hides the panel joining seam from sunlight and chafe, so this will not fail, as long as a proper boltrope is fitted around the sail.

    ·         If a batten pocket is to be replaced for some reason, this can be done by simply ripping the single (zigzag) batten pocket seam, and a new pocket can be fitted. This can again be done without having to roll up half the sail to let it pass under the arm of the sewing machine: Only the new batten pocket is passed under the sewing machine.

    Simple to make, simple to maintain, simple as that.
    However, that would not have been good enough, even for me, if the Amateur Method B had resulted in a weak sail or a sail that didn’t perform. My experience is that the sail keeps together very well  -  and performance-wise I and Ingeborg touch our forelock to no one.

    It is a fact, though, that the sail may look bad along the battens, at times. It is worst when spotting the sail in light winds, when on the port tack, and looking on its port side (photo below, left). It is the way it is. It doesn’t do any harm to the all-important cambered panels, but it may make some eyes sore. If that look is unbearable to a wannabe amateur sailmaker, then he or she should consider switching to some sailmaker’s method instead. Maybe I should put a warning about it in Chapter 5?

    Conclusion:
    I stand by my claim that my sails are good, since they both perform well and last well  -  even if some details look very untidy, at times.

    Arne


    (Photo 3 in photo section 5 in my member's album)

    Last modified: 22 Aug 2023 08:08 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 12 Aug 2018 03:52
    Reply # 6505720 on 869421

    I think you must have seen bad examples, David.  I've seen several of Arne's sails setting beautifully, including his own and some of the boats that have fitted Arne-style sails here, sail very impressively.  His simple approach to sewing the sails together has encouraged lots of people to make their own sails, who would otherwise have been frightened off trying.  I may not be a rig geek, but I think I know a good-looking sail when I see one.  It's not fair to judge all the boats with Arne sails as looking awful, just because you've seen some setting less than well.

    I haven't got time to rummage through photos in my collection to bear out my statements, but I have plenty, believe me.

    There is always more than one way of skinning a cat.

  • 11 Aug 2018 22:19
    Reply # 6498944 on 869421
    Anonymous member (Administrator)



    David,

    well, that was quite a broadside. I guess you and I disagree on what is good and what is not good when it comes to junksails.

    First the yard:
    A longer yard, as Hasler and McLeod landed on, and which I basically use, can easily be made strong enough, it is a simple question of engineering. The funny thing is that the top three panels hold up very well, both with full sail set, and when deeply reefed. I have indeed very few structural problems in my last few rigs. Besides, the top section has proved to be so effective that I refuse to trade it away for a flatter, shorter yard.

    Now, there are a number of people who has built sails to my designs. Some of them have even assembled them using my methods.

    If they return here with reports that they have run into trouble, performance-wise, handling-wise or with respect to structural problems, because of my advices, then I may have to reconsider my work.

    I will anyway keep on sailing my own Ingeborg as she is, because she performs so well, and is so fun to sail.

    Performance and fun  -  simple minds are easy to please!
     

    Arne


    Last modified: 22 May 2021 09:58 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 11 Aug 2018 21:39
    Reply # 6498170 on 869421

    "Over the years I have bored you folks sick with telling (bragging?) about my boats and their rigs. I have often been met with phrases like ‘apples and oranges’, ‘horses for courses’, ‘fjord flyers’, ‘over-rigged’ and ‘wrinkles’. I have also been instructed that my ‘2-D barrel only’ way of constructing the sail is not as good as more advanced (= complicated) ways. During later years a new ‘truth’ has been developed: Lower yard angles and shorter yards are more efficient or just ‘better’ than full-length high-peaking yards."

    Are you deliberately misunderstanding, Arne? Lower yard angles and shorter yards reduce stresses and make the sail easier to handle, and easier to set well. They have little to do with speed to windward (either positive or negative), which is only one element in the equation for cruising boats. They have everything to do with making the boat pleasanter and easier to sail.

    You do indeed have the right to make badly constructed sails that look terrible, and to say that you don't care so long as they perform well. Others are concerned with pride in their craftsmanship, and the pleasure of looking at a well made sail.

    What concerns me is that you are teaching first time sailmakers to make bad sails. When it would be better to say up front  "this is the way that I do it - it's not the best, there are better ways, but it's good enough for me". In the case of Pol's sail, it was sewn by an experienced machinist who had never made a sail, but was up for the challenge. Give her instructions on making a good sail, and she could make a good sail. Give her instructions on making a bad sail, and she would make a bad sail. It seems that instruction on how these high peaked sails put quite considerable loads on the peak and throat were lacking, anyway, as Pol has had to make two repairs in the first three weeks of use.

  • 11 Aug 2018 16:14
    Reply # 6491402 on 869421
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    After the 2018 Tallship event

    In recent years I have from time to time been told that my way of making sails is not so good, last time now in the  Ardinamir micro-junket  posting today.

    Until recently, I had almost bought the idea that my sails are second-best  -  that is, until a sail I had a couple of weeks ago. My experience from that trip triggered me to produce this write-up. I have sent it for proof-reading and comments to Slieve McGalliard, but he is on holiday, so in the meantime I let you have the draft.

    NOTE: If I were a salesman, making sails for a living, or if I were a JR-missionary, I too would be keen to please the eyes of the spectators. However, I am neither of these and my priorities are therefore:

    1.      Maximum ease of designing and making. I am strictly a DIY-er

    2.      Maximum speed and handling performance for minimum cost in money or labour.

    3.      Longivity

    ‘Pleasing to the eye’ is not even on my list. Junkrigs will always look weird to eyes calibrated to like Bermuda rigs. Junkrigs is a sort of acquired taste.

    Much as I defend other peoples’ right to express different views than mine, I defend my own right to do things my way. I do not buy armchair wisdom.

    Arne


  • 24 May 2018 10:04
    Reply # 6257850 on 869421
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Annie

    The mesh sounds good. However, at 59° north, the ribbons I use will last for at least 2-3 years. I should anyway visit the mast top about once a year to inspect the shackles, blocks and paintwork of the top section (no wear, so far). I can easily bring with me two pieces of fresh ribbon, when needed.

    The burgee I have used (and still use) until today, is sitting on the yard extension stick. This comes down after each outing, so can be replaced from the cockpit. What I missed with that one, was fixed vanes to help me find the right upwind heading.
    Problem solved, now.

    Arne


  • 24 May 2018 08:56
    Reply # 6257819 on 6244779
    Arne Kverneland wrote:

    A  ribbon type, DIY-friendly wind indicator 

    Yesterday I test-sailed a new wind-indicator I made. It was so good that I produced a little photo write-up on it  -  you know me…

    I have sent it for proof-reading, so in a few days I will upload a better version. That one will anyway be found under this link.


    Arne

    Edit at 20180521: The hopefully final version has now been up-loaded.



    Arne, a wee improvement to your great idea: instead of using ribbon, which has a limited life expectancy, I recommend using a strip of mesh, such as is used for making pockets in bathing trunks and sports clothes.  I always put a length of this on the fly of my burgees (colour co-ordinated, of course) and it stops them flogging themselves to bits.  You can easily buy some from a shop that sells dress fabric.  In fact, you need so little that they will probably give it to you!

    A super-simple, more temporary wind indicator, hoisted like a burgee, can be made with a length of bamboo, a screw, two washers and a length of mesh, which has a hole burnt into one end with a soldering iron.  Put washer on screw; poke screw though hole in mesh; put second washer on screw; fasten screw into the end of the bamboo.  Raise wind indicator using spare halyard block (you only need about 4mm rope), with a clove hitch about 40% of the way up the bamboo and a second one near the bottom.  The knuckles of the bamboo provide extra security.  Because the mesh flies horizontally rather than vertically it seems to be much less inclined to snag on things.


       " ...there is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing as simply messing about in junk-rigged boats" 
                                                               - the Chinese Water Rat

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