Seablossom update

  • 18 Oct 2011 15:58
    Reply # 725966 on 710749
    Deleted user
    Paul, Ketil, you both offer good advice but, if she runs with a new head gasket for the year I'm going to disregard it. I will, instead, take some time probably next winter and copy Whoosh's removable cockpit deck. Then I should be able to pluck the engine out from directly overhead if I still feel the need. By then, too, I have a reasonable hope of converting some grain bins here on the place to a boat shop, which would enable me to get her in out of the weather before trying all the rest.
    I'm certain that I need to do some other interior work this winter, and pondering a major change which I'll cover in the next few days on a separate topic.
  • 18 Oct 2011 14:36
    Reply # 725902 on 725798
    Paul Thompson wrote:
    Jeff McFadden wrote: Extremely well thought out.  I am jealous indeed.  Were Seablossom in the same condition I would have simply pulled the engine out and gone through it from top to bottom - it is old, and certainly worn.  Why go with halfway measures?
    But of course, the "why" is that I don't know how I'd get it out of there without cutting at least part of one of the bulkheads away, just to make space to slide it forward onto the cabin sole.  Perhaps I could get it out the companionway then, or at a minimum I could just arrange a work bench in the cabin and rebuild it on the spot, but I'm not ready for that extent of boat surgery this autumn.
    There is a guy who frequents the Yahoo Nor'Sea 27 group who has cut his cockpit deck to allow for a large hatch through which he can work, then remade the removed portion into a cover with gaskets.  I still don't think he can pull the engine through the hole, though, and I wouldn't find it that useful to have to kneel on a narrow rim and work below the level of my knees... or whatever it is he does.
    Hi Jeff, I know it is a very real pain but if you are going to do much work on your engine, it may be worth the time and effort to workout how to get the engine out and make the required modifications. You have the whole winter to do the joib, I seem to recall you saying :-)
    I guess I would say Amen to that. Think about it as an investment in less trouble from the delinquent. After all, fiberglass work is for nonskilled workmen, being more timeconsuming than difficult.
  • 18 Oct 2011 09:19
    Reply # 725798 on 725455
    Jeff McFadden wrote: Extremely well thought out.  I am jealous indeed.  Were Seablossom in the same condition I would have simply pulled the engine out and gone through it from top to bottom - it is old, and certainly worn.  Why go with halfway measures?
    But of course, the "why" is that I don't know how I'd get it out of there without cutting at least part of one of the bulkheads away, just to make space to slide it forward onto the cabin sole.  Perhaps I could get it out the companionway then, or at a minimum I could just arrange a work bench in the cabin and rebuild it on the spot, but I'm not ready for that extent of boat surgery this autumn.
    There is a guy who frequents the Yahoo Nor'Sea 27 group who has cut his cockpit deck to allow for a large hatch through which he can work, then remade the removed portion into a cover with gaskets.  I still don't think he can pull the engine through the hole, though, and I wouldn't find it that useful to have to kneel on a narrow rim and work below the level of my knees... or whatever it is he does.
    Hi Jeff, I know it is a very real pain but if you are going to do much work on your engine, it may be worth the time and effort to workout how to get the engine out and make the required modifications. You have the whole winter to do the joib, I seem to recall you saying :-)
  • 18 Oct 2011 02:40
    Reply # 725455 on 725249
    Deleted user
    Ketil Greve wrote:
    Oh dear,

    If Edmond Dantes was built like that, I would have given it a Viking funeral! I bought the hull and deck bonded together and had to fill in, bolt on all the items a sailing boat needs to be a sailing boat. I knew from previus experiences that anything installed will sooner or later need attention or exchange. When installing bits and bobs, (including an engine), I knew that the thing would need attention. To be frank: a lot of it. Edmond Dantes was presented to water in 1983. I have had the engine out two times changing the bellows on the saildrive. Changed all electrical cables 1 time, (piece of cake, they live in tubes), the holding tank once, all seacocks once, rerigged the animal once, changed rudder once and probably something I have forgotten, ah yes: took the keel off to exchange the bolts. All items I put into the boat, I had to consider: Can I get to the thing without dismanteling everything around? Can I remove it without using a saw. Will a new item go in without the need of an epoxy job? So far my engineering has been good. Only exception was the rudder, but that was a major reengineering job. Lucily, building my own boat left me with no respect for major operations, and I know I can do most jobs myself. I am not sure I would let anybody do a job for me. OK, I need to learn to sew.

     

    Extremely well thought out.  I am jealous indeed.  Were Seablossom in the same condition I would have simply pulled the engine out and gone through it from top to bottom - it is old, and certainly worn.  Why go with halfway measures?
    But of course, the "why" is that I don't know how I'd get it out of there without cutting at least part of one of the bulkheads away, just to make space to slide it forward onto the cabin sole.  Perhaps I could get it out the companionway then, or at a minimum I could just arrange a work bench in the cabin and rebuild it on the spot, but I'm not ready for that extent of boat surgery this autumn.
    There is a guy who frequents the Yahoo Nor'Sea 27 group who has cut his cockpit deck to allow for a large hatch through which he can work, then remade the removed portion into a cover with gaskets.  I still don't think he can pull the engine through the hole, though, and I wouldn't find it that useful to have to kneel on a narrow rim and work below the level of my knees... or whatever it is he does.
  • 17 Oct 2011 21:23
    Reply # 725249 on 725075
    Jeff McFadden wrote:Thanks, Annie. I figured the post wouldn't make any sense at all if readers were clueless as to diesel function.
    Thanks, Gary, but it won't even start with a whiff of ether up the wind pipe, so it's not an injection pump. Yet.
    The rest of the story:
    As in almost all sailboats, the engine is stuffed back into a hole where it is quite difficult to reach. In fact, if this weren't the aft cabin version of the Nor'Sea 27 I don't know how I could begin to work on this engine. As it is, one lifts off the companionway stairs and takes off a hatch cover and the front pf the engine is there. Then one puts the companionway stairs back on, climbs out and down into the aft cabin, removes another hatch cover, and there as if by magic is the back of the engine.
    Sooo.... one can remove a bolt or two through one hatch, clamber up, over, and down, remove another bolt or two... lather, rinse, repeat.
    It is, of course, understood that the upper edge of these hatches is about even with mid-chest. All accesses begin with some contortion or other.
    Now I'm not hugely fat, but I have more paunch than I wish I had. It's not all that bendable. Oh well.
    The head is (surprise) bolted down to the top of the engine. And, the top of the engine is only a few inches below the underside of the cockpit deck. And (do you hear that eerie music?) there are a few parts bolted to the top pf the head. The little stand that pivots the gizmos that open the valves, called rocker arms. And the fuel injector is up there.
    There are studs that come up from the block through the head. The head slips down over the studs, sits on the block (with, of course, the aforementioned gasket) and then nuts fasten the whole works together.
    There are also a bunch of external things bolted to the head, some because that's where they perform their function and others simply because it's a handy hunk of iron to bolt stuff to. There's an air intake pipe. An exhaust pipe. Fuel lines to the injector. There is also an engine lifting point, and some pivot points for the throttle cable. You know... stuff. Stuff you can barely see reaching in one side or another of this cave with a tiny flashlight. Marine diesel mechanics is a job for the young and slim... I'm 0 for 2.
    Anyway, I had it pretty much on the run. I had most all the external stuff unbolted or removed. Most. I had the nuts off the head studs. Needless to say, leaking or not the head was stuck down to the head gasket and block like it had been glued with 3M 5200. I took crowbars down into each cabin and tried to pry it up. No good. These crowbars were sort of chisel-ended on the long end, so I stuck one of them at the gasket edge, the junction point of head and block, and whacked it with a 3 pound sledge. Presto.
    So, I went to the other cabin and whacked the other crowbar, and we were moving right along.
    Except the two things I hadn't taken off the top of the head made it too tall to come up and off the studs. The left-on parts hit the bottom of the cockpit deck. And jammed. I couldn't get it to move up, and I couldn't get it to move back down.
    I said a Bad Word.
    Finally, after much muttering and contorting, I was able to get the head jiggled around to where I could get the taller of the two pieces off. Now my only remaining problem was that the push rods had cocked around fro below and wouldn't let me get the head squared away enough to pull it off.
    Push rods are part of the mechanism that opens the valves. They are pushed up from below by a cam shaft, and in turn push on a rocker arm (think: little tiny teeter totter) which pushes the valve down and open.
    So... I get to fiddling with the push rods. These are little steel rods a little smaller than a pencil. One of them jiggles back into its seat, down there hidden inside the engine block. Good, good. I continue working.
    Then, without warning, the other one vanishes. Poof! Down into the bowels of the beast.
    I said a Very Bad Word.
    Next installment: extracting a push rod from the bowels of the beast.


    Oh dear,

    If Edmond Dantes was built like that, I would have given it a Viking funeral! I bought the hull and deck bonded together and had to fill in, bolt on all the items a sailing boat needs to be a sailing boat. I knew from previus experiences that anything installed will sooner or later need attention or exchange. When installing bits and bobs, (including an engine), I knew that the thing would need attention. To be frank: a lot of it. Edmond Dantes was presented to water in 1983. I have had the engine out two times changing the bellows on the saildrive. Changed all electrical cables 1 time, (piece of cake, they live in tubes), the holding tank once, all seacocks once, rerigged the animal once, changed rudder once and probably something I have forgotten, ah yes: took the keel off to exchange the bolts. All items I put into the boat, I had to consider: Can I get to the thing without dismanteling everything around? Can I remove it without using a saw. Will a new item go in without the need of an epoxy job? So far my engineering has been good. Only exception was the rudder, but that was a major reengineering job. Lucily, building my own boat left me with no respect for major operations, and I know I can do most jobs myself. I am not sure I would let anybody do a job for me. OK, I need to learn to sew.

     

  • 17 Oct 2011 17:59
    Reply # 725075 on 710749
    Deleted user
    Thanks, Annie. I figured the post wouldn't make any sense at all if readers were clueless as to diesel function.
    Thanks, Gary, but it won't even start with a whiff of ether up the wind pipe, so it's not an injection pump. Yet.
    The rest of the story:
    As in almost all sailboats, the engine is stuffed back into a hole where it is quite difficult to reach. In fact, if this weren't the aft cabin version of the Nor'Sea 27 I don't know how I could begin to work on this engine. As it is, one lifts off the companionway stairs and takes off a hatch cover and the front pf the engine is there. Then one puts the companionway stairs back on, climbs out and down into the aft cabin, removes another hatch cover, and there as if by magic is the back of the engine.
    Sooo.... one can remove a bolt or two through one hatch, clamber up, over, and down, remove another bolt or two... lather, rinse, repeat.
    It is, of course, understood that the upper edge of these hatches is about even with mid-chest. All accesses begin with some contortion or other.
    Now I'm not hugely fat, but I have more paunch than I wish I had. It's not all that bendable. Oh well.
    The head is (surprise) bolted down to the top of the engine. And, the top of the engine is only a few inches below the underside of the cockpit deck. And (do you hear that eerie music?) there are a few parts bolted to the top pf the head. The little stand that pivots the gizmos that open the valves, called rocker arms. And the fuel injector is up there.
    There are studs that come up from the block through the head. The head slips down over the studs, sits on the block (with, of course, the aforementioned gasket) and then nuts fasten the whole works together.
    There are also a bunch of external things bolted to the head, some because that's where they perform their function and others simply because it's a handy hunk of iron to bolt stuff to. There's an air intake pipe. An exhaust pipe. Fuel lines to the injector. There is also an engine lifting point, and some pivot points for the throttle cable. You know... stuff. Stuff you can barely see reaching in one side or another of this cave with a tiny flashlight. Marine diesel mechanics is a job for the young and slim... I'm 0 for 2.
    Anyway, I had it pretty much on the run. I had most all the external stuff unbolted or removed. Most. I had the nuts off the head studs. Needless to say, leaking or not the head was stuck down to the head gasket and block like it had been glued with 3M 5200. I took crowbars down into each cabin and tried to pry it up. No good. These crowbars were sort of chisel-ended on the long end, so I stuck one of them at the gasket edge, the junction point of head and block, and whacked it with a 3 pound sledge. Presto.
    So, I went to the other cabin and whacked the other crowbar, and we were moving right along.
    Except the two things I hadn't taken off the top of the head made it too tall to come up and off the studs. The left-on parts hit the bottom of the cockpit deck. And jammed. I couldn't get it to move up, and I couldn't get it to move back down.
    I said a Bad Word.
    Finally, after much muttering and contorting, I was able to get the head jiggled around to where I could get the taller of the two pieces off. Now my only remaining problem was that the push rods had cocked around fro below and wouldn't let me get the head squared away enough to pull it off.
    Push rods are part of the mechanism that opens the valves. They are pushed up from below by a cam shaft, and in turn push on a rocker arm (think: little tiny teeter totter) which pushes the valve down and open.
    So... I get to fiddling with the push rods. These are little steel rods a little smaller than a pencil. One of them jiggles back into its seat, down there hidden inside the engine block. Good, good. I continue working.
    Then, without warning, the other one vanishes. Poof! Down into the bowels of the beast.
    I said a Very Bad Word.
    Next installment: extracting a push rod from the bowels of the beast.
  • 17 Oct 2011 06:04
    Reply # 724613 on 710749
    I think that was the most lucid description of how a diesel engine works that I have ever read! 

    I have a friend with an old Yanmar that has been giving her untold grief.  In the end Bill (our resident Wise Man About Engines) has decided that it maybe has a nasty habit of snorting water back up the exhaust when you stop it down and say thank you.  His advice?  Close the seacock first.  (My friend hangs the starter key on the seacock to remind her to open it again!)  Conceivably your engine might have had the same vice, so it may be worth looking for that when you get it going in earnest.
    Last modified: 17 Oct 2011 06:21 | Anonymous member
  • 17 Oct 2011 05:27
    Reply # 724596 on 711282
    Jeff McFadden wrote:
    Annie Hill wrote:Sounds like a busy winter ahead, Jeff :-).  Hope you get the boat up and running to your satisfaction for when the water goes liquid again (I assume it goes a bit solid in winter in your neck of the woods?)  There are several types of boaties (oh really!) but two distinct types are those that just want to get everything more or less working and then get on with other things aboard, like drinking wine and reading good books; and the other type who get everything more or less working and then take it all apart and do it again.  I am of the former persuasion, as I believe are you, so I hope that things do go as smoothly as is reasonably possible in a naughty world. 

    Ah, yes, nav lights.  I replaced my bulbs with LED bulbs, contrary to the Oracle's excellent advice.  The fit wasn't good enough, particularly on an unstayed mast that makes things at the top wobble around.  I am $160 poorer and still have no nav lights.  I hope the Oracle misses this thread because I have been too cowardly to admit that he was right! My advice, for what it's worth, is be careful if you 'retrofit'.

    Ah yes. Well, I'm "retrofitting" from a state known as No Lights Whatsoever. I'll buy LED lights right off the bat so poor fit shouldn't be an issue.
    You know you didn't slip that past The Oracle No days like that. ;-}
    On a perhaps brighter note: I fussed with the little Yanmar much of today, and my call is that it is in better shape than I was led to believe. It has compression for sure, fuel delivery at least part way (I still need to track that further) but won't run.
    After I finish chasing the fuel delivery all the way through (which I think the lads down at the shop did but if I'm following in their footsteps I might as well follow them all.)
    They (the lads down at the shop) said that after they did all they did that they sprayed ether in it and it still wouldn't run. I'm thinking injector and valve. I hope. A hundred and thirty bucks US, that's not too bad.
    There are little shims that go under the injector pump to control the timing of the injection. The PO said something about thinking its timing might be off. I'm seriously hoping he didn't fiddle with that.

    Jeff if the engine has been sitting for a while the piston in the fuel pump might be seized, mine was but they do free up with a bit of work. I have a YSE12.
  • 17 Oct 2011 04:26
    Reply # 724498 on 710749
    Deleted user
    Yesterday I pulled the head off Seablossom's elderly Yanmar diesel. For those of you who keep track of such things, the current Yanmar single cylinder marine diesel is a 10 hp engine designated 1gm10. Before that came the 1gm, and before *that* came the SVE series, with an 8 hp (SVE8) and a 12 hp (SVE12). Mine is an SVE8.
    The head caps the cylinder and contains the valves that let combustion air in and exhaust gases out. When the piston goes down it creates a vacuum in the cylinder, the intake valve is opened, and air is drawn into the cylinder, filling it up and replacing the vacuum.
    When the piston reaches the bottom both valves close. When the piston goes back up it squishes the air inside the cylinder into a very small volume. When a gas is compressed it gets hot. When a relatively large volume of gas gets compressed into a tiny volume it gets very hot. Hundreds of degrees.
    So... after the air gets all squished down, a shot of diesel fuel is sprayed into the cylinder through an injector that breaks it down into a fine mist. The hot air ignites it, the pressure of the burning gas expanding inside the cylinder forces the piston down, and the crankshaft it's mounted to gives a bit of spin to the propeller.
    This crankshaft and piston and so forth are mounted to a big iron flywheel so that, once the process is started, the piston will keep going up and down between these "power strokes," which only happen every other time the piston goes up and down, because ...
    Now we've pushed the piston to the bottom, but we didn't have a chance to suck in a fresh load of combustion air. To the contrary, we've got a cylinder full of burned diesel oil and not much remaining oxygen to support any more ignition.
    So now the exhaust valve opens up, flywheel inertia carries the piston back up pushing the exhaust gases out of the cylinder, and the whole cycle begins again. The intake valve opens, the piston goes down, and everything goes round and round.
    Very simple machine. All you need is the basic machine itself, fuel to squirt in at the appropriate time, and some external force to get it all spinning in the first place.
    The major catch is that the cylinder has to be absolutely airtight except when the valves are open. Compression makes the heat that lights the fire. If the cylinder leaks - say one of the valves is burned a little, or the metal rings that make the piston airtight in the cylinder breaks or even wears down too far - anything like this can let some of the air leak out of the cylinder while the piston is going up and prevent the high compression and high heat it takes to ignite oily diesel fuel.
    Or even easier - the head that caps the cylinder and holds the valves has to be sealed to the cylinder with a strong, high-pressure gasket. If that seal between the head and the cylinder develops a leak, if that head gasket "blows", it's game over. So I pulled the head off the little SVE8. Valves look ok. Cylinder walls and piston look ok. One tends to tear up head gaskets just getting the head off so that I can't tell if it was good or not, but I'm hoping not. Now I'll have to order one to find out. Jeff
  • 03 Oct 2011 08:18
    Reply # 713911 on 713852
    Neil Tanner wrote:
    Paul Thompson wrote:
    Neil Tanner wrote:Gary, I just uploaded a couple of pictures of a set of swiveling reading lights I made for the vee-berth on Sea Elf using Bebi led's and pvc.  The really do a good job.

    Where did you upload them to Neil? They are not in your profile.

    Hey Paul...yeah that's where I needed to put them but they went into boat picture section instead.....I need to shuffle them around.

    Paul, I've deleted them from the boat photo section and have now placed them in their proper place in my profile section.


    Nicely done Neil, very nicely done. That would have been one for the $10.00 topic but of cause the cost of the led's would take it out of that bracket. Though not by much I do think.
       " ...there is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing as simply messing about in junk-rigged boats" 
                                                               - the Chinese Water Rat

                                                              Site contents © the Junk Rig Association and/or individual authors

Powered by Wild Apricot Membership Software