Darren Bos wrote:

I feel a bit odd being on the RIB side of this discussion.  Prior to this dinghy, we've always had hard tenders that we enjoyed and which I hope to have more of one day.  Our used Avon RIB definitely cost less than I'd spend on materials to build a new dinghy.  

RIBs do in a way present the best of both worlds with a reasonable lower hull shape which can be rowed, and the buoyancy of the inflatable tubes. The can also be quite good in rough sea conditions, and if have an alloy lower hull are quite light weight. They are limited though in their pack down size, and they are not cheap. But, I might have a look for some second hand RIBs.

This has got me thinking about one of the Avon inflatable dinghies I owned 25 years ago. It had an inflatable keel and those solid rubber rowlocks which actually took a proper oar for rowing. But I don't imagine Avon build any of those now, in fact Avon dinghies I expect are probably now produced in China (?). 

David Tyler wrote:When I was working on the SibLim design, I did several "what if?" exercises, scaling up and down. One of them was for a tender-sized dinghy, taking off the lute stern and trimming the topsides down to a more sensible height for a dinghy. I'd worked on a length of 9ft, but I've just revisited the concept and scaled it up to 306 Kg displacement when the transom and chine are just kissing the water. At a boat all-up weight of 46kg (101lb) the payload would therefore be 260kg - enough for 2 adults and 2 teenagers? The length, with a small bow transom, turns out to be 3.446m (11ft 4in), with a beam of 1.22m (4ft) and a draught of 0.225m (9in). The appearance is quite graceful, and somewhat similar to the Joel White Shellback. I think this would be a good rowing boat.

Any good?

That's not playing fair David, presenting a nice design right in my lap!  I must admit, it also tickles my sense of humour that my dinghy could be a half-scale model of Annie's Yacht.  I went back and looked over the Siblim16 and scaled down with the alterations you describe, it would make an interesting tender.  I only have about 10' of deck space to store the dinghy, so it is a little too long, although maybe I could squeeze the bow through the forward dorades to make it fit.  The last problems, would be that it would obscure the view forward from our low pilothouse and that I am in up to my neck in our complete refit and conversion of Leeway to a junk rig.  We plan to launch by Christmas this year and it will take all I have to do it.  If you have a copy of the drawing to stash away in my someday dreams file (or so I have something to start from if someone steals the RIB) I'd like to see it.

Darren Bos wrote:

 To meet my criteria of seaworthyness across a range of conditions with a load of four adults (or two adults, two kids and some gear), I always seem to end up with a hard dinghy over 12' (3.7m) long, or maybe 6" shorter if you put a bit of pram bow on it.  The weight of such a boat starts to approach that of a 10' (3m) light-RIB (no consoles, double floors, 30hp outboards or other nonsense), which has greater carrying capacity.  Neither is going to be easy for two adults to get up a difficult beach. 

When I was working on the SibLim design, I did several "what if?" exercises, scaling up and down. One of them was for a tender-sized dinghy, taking off the lute stern and trimming the topsides down to a more sensible height for a dinghy. I'd worked on a length of 9ft, but I've just revisited the concept and scaled it up to 306 Kg displacement when the transom and chine are just kissing the water. At a boat all-up weight of 46kg (101lb) the payload would therefore be 260kg - enough for 2 adults and 2 teenagers? The length, with a small bow transom, turns out to be 3.446m (11ft 4in), with a beam of 1.22m (4ft) and a draught of 0.225m (9in). The appearance is quite graceful, and somewhat similar to the Joel White Shellback. I think this would be a good rowing boat.

Any good?

Annie Hill wrote:I would guess 100lbs is the design weight: Joel designed it for New England sailors who generally tow their boats.  I bought ours from a bloke in Nova Scotia, who had built one for himself and one to sell; he didn't intend to tow the dinghy so had pared the weight right down.  I doubt she weighed much over 70lbs, certainly two of us could easily carry her up a long beach.

If you want a dinghy you can row with four adults in a F5 without slopping any water into it, you will need something like Gary Underwood's sailing lifeboat, "Little Chap".  Unfortunately I don't have a photo of it.

You misunderstood me about two rowing.  I meant rowing 4 oars - one rowing in the bow, one towards midships and two in the stern.  Hence 4 rowing positions and shorter oars for the bowman.  You develop an astonishing amount of power like this - it's so efficient and so easy that it feels as though there is some sort of synergy: from going from 2 oars and hard work, you go to 4 and fly.  It's a joy.  Obviously, with a mixed bag of adults, you try moving them around until the trim is just right.

Yes, 3m is a bit short for four adults in a chop.  But if you wanted four adults in a solid dinghy with an outboard, you'd need something a lot bigger, too.  Maybe you need a three piece nester where you can add something in the middle for four up in windy weather!!

The Gary Underwood "Little Chap" has exceeded my Googling abilities to find a picture or description.  However, I think we're on the same page and the three section Nester idea has some merit. To meet my criteria of seaworthyness across a range of conditions with a load of four adults (or two adults, two kids and some gear), I always seem to end up with a hard dinghy over 12' (3.7m) long, or maybe 6" shorter if you put a bit of pram bow on it.  The weight of such a boat starts to approach that of a 10' (3m) light-RIB (no consoles, double floors, 30hp outboards or other nonsense), which has greater carrying capacity.  Neither is going to be easy for two adults to get up a difficult beach.

AAaaahhh, yes rowers fore and aft would be much better!  With a big enough boat I could see that being fairly enjoyable.  We've experienced the same kind of effortless speed in our tandem kayak and I could see a workable family tender along those lines, assuming storage could be found for a dinghy big enough to give space for tandem rowers.  A 4m nesting boat might be the ticket.  

Darren Bos wrote:If I could have only one dinghy, then something like the Shellback might be workable, although at 100lbs I think it is heavy enough to put it into the category where it is no longer easy to move around (for comparison, our RIB with engine is 152lbs).  I'd also want to try the Shellback with four aboard rowing through waves.  Many of the dinghies that are described as a joy to row are only that way when you have one or two aboard.  By the time you add four, and the bottom of the transom has sunk below the waterline, and you start to take the occasional wave over the bow, then joy doesn't really fit the bill any more.

I'm on the BC coast, and I work here as an aquatic ecologist, so I understand what you are saying about getting boats on and off the shore in difficult locations and conditions.  We have fold-down, large-diameter wheels that cover surprisingly rough terrain to move our light RIB ashore quickly.  For steep barnacle laden rocks, I'd prefer to land with my paddle-board, tuck it under an arm, and run up the rocks.  If we really needed the RIB on such a shore we'd use an anchor and a very long piece of webbing with a bungee inside.  The bungee pulls the dinghy back out to the anchor where it happily rises and falls with the tides.  When you return, you pull the boat back in with the second line you have tied to the shore.  This also saves you carrying the boat through the muck when you come back at low tide.  

I agree with the simplicity and durability of a hard tender that is rowed, but my experience with similar boats makes me suspect that for a family of four it would have larger than the Shellback.  Having one person row such a big boat isn't tenable and coordinating rowing with two folks side by side in rough conditions isn't always enjoyable.  Vancouver and his men did it on this coast, but they were tougher, and I doubt even they would have attempted it as a unit of father, mother and children!  However, individual kayaks are brilliant for paddling as a family.

 

I would guess 100lbs is the design weight: Joel designed it for New England sailors who generally tow their boats.  I bought ours from a bloke in Nova Scotia, who had built one for himself and one to sell; he didn't intend to tow the dinghy so had pared the weight right down.  I doubt she weighed much over 70lbs, certainly two of us could easily carry her up a long beach.

If you want a dinghy you can row with four adults in a F5 without slopping any water into it, you will need something like Gary Underwood's sailing lifeboat, "Little Chap".  Unfortunately I don't have a photo of it.

You misunderstood me about two rowing.  I meant rowing 4 oars - one rowing in the bow, one towards midships and two in the stern.  Hence 4 rowing positions and shorter oars for the bowman.  You develop an astonishing amount of power like this - it's so efficient and so easy that it feels as though there is some sort of synergy: from going from 2 oars and hard work, you go to 4 and fly.  It's a joy.  Obviously, with a mixed bag of adults, you try moving them around until the trim is just right.

Yes, 3m is a bit short for four adults in a chop.  But if you wanted four adults in a solid dinghy with an outboard, you'd need something a lot bigger, too.  Maybe you need a three piece nester where you can add something in the middle for four up in windy weather!!