Multi hull junk

  • 01 Feb 2016 13:39
    Reply # 3793676 on 3781386

    James,

    It would be a shame if you deviated from the multi-hull path.  Junks are rare enough, junk-multis even more so.  (and don't we all have to admit we all like something a bit different?)

    I have been thinking on such lines for a few years, though as a retirement project, now in a couple of years.  The problems with multis, there is such a range between a good family cruising boat and the ever attractive speed machine.  That said nearly all go better than most mono when the wind is free.  Also whilst a Gypsy (a very good compromise) will crack along at 12kts, Richard Woods is quoted as saying 5kts is all he desires for comfortable cruising (and achieving 5kts is very easy - low stress).

    I once looked at a Heavenly Twins, which is very much at the comfortable end of the scale.  I  surprised myself in considering it a possibility.  The accommodation is amazing, especially with a cockpit tent - 3 separate living spaces.  That said the performance is not going to set you alight, though they are very seaworthy, one has circumnavigated.  An excellent Mk4 is just come on Apollo Duck for £19k (probably will not be on the market very long)- I am tempted, should be an easy conversion.

    Last modified: 01 Feb 2016 13:42 | Anonymous member
  • 30 Jan 2016 20:58
    Reply # 3791401 on 3791144
    James Hleba wrote:

    I am not even thinking about resale value as I am sure I won't turn a profit, especially with it junk rigged.

    This is a much-repeated myth that bears little relation to reality.  Sure, there are some people who have problems selling their junk-rigged boats, but I've sold all three of mine without even advertising them.  There are far more people wanting junk-rigged boats than there are junk-rigged boats available.   Having worked for yacht brokers, my recommendation is to sell it yourself as well. - most yacht brokers simply don't understand the market for this type of boat.  Apollo Duck is a good site, in that it gives you the opportunity to reach people all over the world and to give very detailed information on the boat.  Most junks don't sell more because of their location, their condition or because they are, quite simply, overpriced. 

    I also hold the philosophy that a known devil is better then an unknown devil. I know every inch of this boat, where every nick in the gel coat is, all of its negative and ugliness. Any boat in my price range is going to have issues. Based off of the boats I have looked at, I would have to spend at least $20000 for a boat ready to go, but maybe I will get lucky and something will come up for auction for not paying there slip.

    A good friend had a very early Colombia 26, which he planned to turn into an ocean voyager.  It all seemed very feasible until he started looking more closely.  The bubble-shaped cabin top was totally rotten and there were some issues with the hull.  With second-hand boats so cheap, he decided, regretfully, that the time spent on restoring the boat wouldn't be worth it.  But we never doubted she was seaworthy - after all, she'd sailed from California to New Zealand!

    I am still mesmerized by the P95 Catamaran, but feel actually voyaging is more important, and well I already have a boat so now its time to make her seaworthy. Maybe one-day. 

    Yep - go in the boat you have, after which you will be much more certain as to whether you want to build and if so, what you want to build.  Best of luck and see if you can make a bit of time to tell us all about it - and your sailing adventures - in the magazine.
    Last modified: 30 Jan 2016 20:59 | Anonymous member
  • 30 Jan 2016 18:53
    Reply # 3791144 on 3781386
    Deleted user

    Thanks for the tips, and Johnny is asking $8900 for an 80% finished boat. I think if I do all the work I can finish mine for around $5000- $6000 for the whole kit and caboodle. Thank you so much for all the input, and I will keep my eye on the used market before I start any major renovation. I got the boat for such a fantastically low price ( the seller even paid for the marina fees for the first 3 months) I can financially justify spending up to $10000, as I have seen a couple of the same model in nicer shape go for between $9000 and $16000. I am not even thinking about resale value as I am sure I won't turn a profit, especially with it junk rigged. I also hold the philosophy that a known devil is better then an unknown devil. I know every inch of this boat, where every nick in the gel coat is, all of its negative and ugliness. Any boat in my price range is going to have issues. Based off of the boats I have looked at, I would have to spend at least $20000 for a boat ready to go, but maybe I will get lucky and something will come up for auction for not paying there slip. 

    I am still mesmerized by the P95 Catamaran, but feel actually voyaging is more important, and well I already have a boat so now its time to make her seaworthy. Maybe one-day. 

  • 29 Jan 2016 22:10
    Reply # 3789950 on 3781386
    James, JRA member, Raphael le Grand has done some pretty good voyages in his 25ft Benetau, which might reassure you as to the feasibility of your intended voyage.  A few things to bear in mind
    • the first boat is rarely the ideal one, so don't invest too much time, money and energy into it.
    • boats can usually take far more punishment than the crew
    • read John Guzzwell's Trekka Round the World for some real inspiration.  He also sailed a route very similar to the one you are considering, starting in Victoria BC.  It's a wonderfully happy book.  Trekka, just in case you don't know anything about her, was 20 ft long.
    • Several boats have had Jester type alterations.  MingMing is another boat worth close study, but Roger only goes to sea for a maximum for 3 months: if you are voyaging, you'd better forget about built-in buoyancy unless you can live on fresh air!
    And before you commit, why not look around for other boats under 30 ft for sale?  35ft is way too big - it will cost a lot more to buy, and, more importantly, the cost of maintenance and equipment goes up exponentially with size.  But you might find a fixer-upper that needs a little less fixing up. 



    Have you considered Jonny Kaplan's Storfidra?  Already junk-rigged.  He's asking for $4,000 - I'm not sure if that includes the rig, but I'm sure you could come to some agreement.   (Look on Swap, Sell or Buy?  They look very seaworthy boats and I suspect would have more room than the Colombia.  Buying her might turn out to be no more expensive than doing all the work on your present boat.  She needs some gear, but you might have that anyway: look here for more about her.  Then you could sail her back to WA learning heaps on the way?

  • 28 Jan 2016 21:51
    Reply # 3788102 on 3781386
    Deleted user

    Jester is what made me realize my dream was possible, and is quite an inspiration. The difference is in the experience in the crew, and Jester was a folkaboat, which are fantastic legendary boats.

  • 28 Jan 2016 21:33
    Reply # 3788054 on 3787982
    James Hleba wrote:

    If we did the voyage in her we would also consider enclosing the cockpit and using a pram hood for keeping watch and sighting. This would give us the ability to further improve our stores aft of the mast, and would help minimize the threat of being tossed overboard in an extreme weather situation. Long as deck work was unnecessary, snared sails, jammed line, along with all the normal sailing stuff that goes wrong when it is least convenient, I should be fine. 

    I got a sub-30 ft pocket cruiser because I have been inspired by all the people who have voyaged on similar sized boats and written fantastic books about it. With boats you pay by the ft, so I figured I would go as small as comfortable. My only real gripe is it would be nice having a counter place to prep food, but that could be resolved with an enclosed cockpit.

    Yes. As I've just said about Steve's TS16, in small boats, I think it's desirable to decrease cockpit volume, increase interior volume, and keep the seawater out of the boat. And also to sail from inside when it's miserable outside. Just think of Jester, making multiple N Atlantic crossings with Mike Richey in his 80's.
  • 28 Jan 2016 21:24
    Reply # 3788050 on 3781386
    Deleted user

    Thank you all for your advise and support. Since I already have the boat, and like it, it would be unnecessary cost to  get another one. People around here like to talk a lot but I never see them off of the marina. What led to the thought of building a boat is the fact any other boat I can realistically afford is going to need the same type of work my current boat needs. 

  • 28 Jan 2016 21:05
    Reply # 3788026 on 3787982
    Deleted user

    Now that things are under way and I am about to have to put my money in one pot or another, the pessimism of my neighborhood marina's have made me skeptical. Maybe I just need to keep my head down, stick to the original plan, and not let the nay sayers get me down.

    Good idea to do your own quiet mental assessment of the validity of comments made by marina 'experts'. Best to listen to people who have real ocean sailing experience. One good thing about the Junk Rig Association is that there is a lot of knowledge, experience and expertise shared amongst many of it's members so comments from people like David Tyler, Annie Hill, Arne, and others are worth listening to. 


    Last modified: 28 Jan 2016 21:07 | Deleted user
  • 28 Jan 2016 21:03
    Reply # 3788022 on 3781386

    Ideally, I'd like to see you make the voyage in a 30ft monohull of at least 4 tons displacement.

    But you have a boat, which you quite like, and you are young, and don't need the creature comforts that we wrinklies do. It always takes twice as long and costs twice as much to build a boat as you first thought, and this ought really to be undertaken only if you can't find a used boat that is better than the one you have. Chances are, if you can afford it, it will need just as much work doing to make it ocean-ready. 

    I think you've identified the issues that you need to fix. Junk rig stresses the hull less, but you might consider some form of extra deck beam near the mast. I've done all my ocean miles in a shoal draught boat (albeit a larger one), and I actually feel safer than with a deep fin keel - the boat yields to the seas, rather than opposing them.

    Your route is the correct one. I transited the Panama Canal with a Hungarian in a 19ft boat, which he'd sailed that far, from Hungary; but doing the reverse trip would need too much windward work for a small, heavily laden boat.

    You can draw a line from Madagascar to the tip of India, and reckon that security is an issue north of that line. It's not an issue going from WA to Hawai'i, to Polynesia, to Australia, to Rodrigues, to S Africa, to Europe. I feel less safe in a large American city such as Seattle than I have done in those places. Sailing-wise, the difficult stretch is from Rodrigues to S Africa, and on around the Cape of Good Hope. You have to negotiate the south end of Madagascar, and then harbour-hop in case a SW gale develops in opposition to the Agulhas current. Otherwise, you have a lot of (mostly) straightforward Trades sailing. A copy of Jimmy Cornell's "Ocean Passages" would be a good investment for you.

  • 28 Jan 2016 20:22
    Reply # 3787982 on 3781386
    Deleted user

    The boat does have some positives. It is extremely thick fiberglass, so its pretty tough. Also she is quite comfortable and we are rather quite attached to her. If we did the voyage in her we would also consider enclosing the cockpit and using a pram hood for keeping watch and sighting. This would give us the ability to further improve our stores aft of the mast, and would help minimize the threat of being tossed overboard in an extreme weather situation. Long as deck work was unnecessary, snared sails, jammed line, along with all the normal sailing stuff that goes wrong when it is least convenient, I should be fine.

    I ran the numbers supplied by fantastic article avoiding capsize by Arne, and my boat is rated at 1.8. Its a little iffy, but if I reef in time and use a drogue, theoretically, I should not capsize. Is this correct?

    The negatives of the boat

    I feel the rudder is underpowered.

    There are known issues with too high of a compression load cracking bulk heads when beating to windward when making ocean passages with a Burmudian rig. I am hoping an unstayed mast will resolve this, thus eliminating the concern when it is a Junk.

    The reason I bought her was because I really like the lines of the hull. She is a bit doggish in light winds because of her weight for the size, but when the wind picks up I can still maintain a full sail while others in even a few slightly larger boats already have to have a reef in and some really light displacement boats have 2 reefs in. I have sailed other Columbia 26, and another 26mkii. The Original sparks and Stephenson model was a real dog on the one I sailed. It really was one of the least pleasant boats I have sailed. the other 26mkii had new sails and was in top shape. It suffered from the same rudder malady as mine, but I figured that could be resolved. Other wise, I loved the way the boat performed so much it always stuck in my mind as one to look for when I entered the market.

    I got a sub-30 ft pocket cruiser because I have been inspired by all the people who have voyaged on similar sized boats and written fantastic books about it. With boats you pay by the ft, so I figured I would go as small as comfortable. My only real gripe is it would be nice having a counter place to prep food, but that could be resolved with an enclosed cockpit.

    Now that things are under way and I am about to have to put my money in one pot or another, the pessimism of my neighborhood marina's have made me skeptical. Maybe I just need to keep my head down, stick to the original plan, and not let the nay sayers get me down.

    Last modified: 28 Jan 2016 20:44 | Deleted user
       " ...there is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing as simply messing about in junk-rigged boats" 
                                                               - the Chinese Water Rat

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