Ingeborg, Arne's Marieholm IF

  • 11 Feb 2015 16:33
    Reply # 3223549 on 3223442
    Anonymous member (Administrator)
    dennis gibbons wrote:

    Arne,

    Have you weighed the BR mast and attending standing rigging of the IF?  It would be useful when considering the JR replacement mast.

    I know you already have the BR mast length.

    Dennis


    No I haven't weighed it, but I have lifted it. I guess it weighs thirty-some kilos. You cannot expect that a freestanding mast will be nearly as light as a stayed mast. I will weigh the JR mast when I have finished it.

    Arne

     Edit 20170603: An IF owner told me that his original rig weighed in at 43kg.

    Last modified: 02 Jun 2017 09:36 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 11 Feb 2015 14:25
    Reply # 3223442 on 3032430
    Deleted user

    Arne,

    Have you weighed the BR mast and attending standing rigging of the IF?  It would be useful when considering the JR replacement mast.

    I know you already have the BR mast length.

    Dennis

  • 30 Jan 2015 20:04
    Reply # 3214321 on 3032430
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    First of all, I am beginning to dislike the SA/disp factor. The only advantage with it is that you can scale a drawing up or down, hull, sail and all, and the SA/displacement will be constant.

    The real  “SA/displacement”; SA[sqm]/weight [metric tons]is rarely mentioned, much in contrast to with cars and aeroplanes. It is this SA/weight that tells about the agility of a vessel, sailing, rolling or flying.

    I can follow David T’s thinking about ocean voyagers, to some degree, but the chosen SA/disp should also vary with the displacement.

    On a 2.5ton boat a SA/disp=21 will mean a SA of just 39sqm.
    On a 6 ton boat the same SA/disp of 21 would call for a SA=69sqm.
    While a 2.5 ton Contessa 26 could easily be handled with 39sqm sail, the six-tonner with 69sqm would be  more than a handful (to me, at least), unless electric halyard and sheet winches are fitted. In addition, short boats need to be pushed more to eat miles, than longer boats, so it makes sense to pile one relatively more sail on small boats.

    As for “the problem” with twist and reduced performance with deeply reefed sails; my experience with deep reefing of the Johanna style sail (modified HM sails, really) is that they go remarkably well to windward. The sail can be reefed down to three panels and still retain full peaking of the yard. Moreover, the lee topping lift then seems to limit the twist to just the right one to create some camber-through-twist. Last summer I had 37 outings in my Frøken Sørensen, about half of the trips alone. Without a crew she is quite tippy and cannot set more than three panels when close-hauled in F5. This means that I get some practice in reefing and even deep reefing. Even Johanna has been sailed deeply reefed many times, and seems to thrive well. Still, I am glad for every square inch of sail I have for light weather. I guess I need full sail almost half the time in Frøken Sørensen, and half of that time I could have used more sail. BTW, her SA/disp.=24.5  -  and she has no ballast...

    Arne

     

    Last modified: 31 Jan 2015 16:06 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 30 Jan 2015 17:07
    Reply # 3214216 on 3032430

    Dennis,

    May I jump in and answer, as an offshore sailor? I sail with rather less than SA/D = 15, and find my performance to be good enough. Offshore, in a cap-full of wind, I'd rather have a smaller sail, not so heavily reefed, than a large sail, so heavily reefed that it is difficult to control the twist. Downwind, I never feel short of performance, as any junk rig, of any size, is more efficient than the same size of bermudan rig (Poor unfortunate people, they use a spinnaker because they must). Upwind, it's better to have a smaller, more efficient sail than a larger, not so efficient sail; that's why I favour wing sails, and why I am tending towards higher aspect ratios. 

    I would say that SA/D = 15 is enough for offshore use, and the further offshore, the less camber is necessary. Of course, there are times when you would like all the drive you can get, but on average, over a long passage, a flatter, smaller sail is easier to live with than a fuller, larger sail.

  • 30 Jan 2015 15:07
    Reply # 3214119 on 3032430
    Deleted user

    Arne,

    I have been doing my homework (reading PJR and "The Cambered Panel Junk Rig") and return more knowledgeable.  But not without questions.

    1.  You suggest a SA/Disp of 20+ to compensate for the lack of a spinnaker which makes sense for coastal cruising.  What about offshore sailing single handed where a spinnaker would be a luxury rather than an expected tool?

    In the range of small offshore capable sloops (Frances 26, Contessa 26, Marieholm 26 and  IF) would you still be so generous?  They all run around 15  SA/Disp in a BR.

    Do you know what sort of SA/Disp predominates among the offshore sailing JR community?

    2.  Why do you not cut the paper patterns to gross measurements  (including hem etc)?  I am sure there is a good reason, it just escapes me. 

    Dennis


  • 28 Dec 2014 19:54
    Reply # 3177487 on 3177187
    Deleted user
    dennis gibbons wrote:

    Ash,

    Having looked at the drawings and notes, I have a concern about the viability/efficiency of using a line to create the floating pivot. I would think a stronger and more stable mechanism could be designed. 

    Regarding the Upside down vane, have you checked out Mr. V?  Were I to design a vane, it might due to incorporate their upper half.

    Dennis

    Hi Dennis,

    Yep i know what you mean, but string can be strong, cheap, easily replaced if showing chafe and has been used by lots of Servo Pendulums to operate tillers and wheels, i like it as it can be disconnected in a trice by freeing it from a jamming cleat, and it is a servo pendulum - without lines across the cockpit. Mr V is excellent i think, and is a manufactured version of Jan's idea.

    Ash

  • 27 Dec 2014 22:47
    Reply # 3177304 on 3177214
    Anonymous member (Administrator)
    dennis gibbons wrote:Arne,

    Thank you for the lead (the internal search function).  It will save me a lot of time catching up to where the group has weighed in already.

    It will also limit my extraneous posts on this thread.

     

    Dennis


    Dennis,
    I may carry several hats, but not that of the "Editor JRA", so I guess you should rather  address your thanks to David Ty.

    Arne

     

    Last modified: 27 Dec 2014 22:47 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 27 Dec 2014 17:31
    Reply # 3177214 on 3032430
    Deleted user
    Arne,

    Thank you for the lead (the internal search function).  It will save me a lot of time catching up to where the group has weighed in already.

    It will also limit my extraneous posts on this thread.


    Dennis

  • 27 Dec 2014 17:17
    Reply # 3177210 on 3176939
    Anonymous member (Administrator)
    dennis gibbons wrote:

    Arne,

    I was wondering if you were going to implement a wind vane steering system on your IF.

    If so, will you be considering Jan Alkema's Rudder Head Mount idea?  The IF would seem to an appropriate hull for that very interesting design.

    If this has already been discussed to death, please just point me to the thread.


    Dennis

    Yes, it has. Here, among other places:

    http://www.junkrigassociation.org/technical_forum/673518

    How did I find that, quickly and easily? I entered "upside down vane" in our search box at the top of the Members' Area page.

  • 27 Dec 2014 15:47
    Reply # 3177187 on 3032430
    Deleted user

    Ash,

    Having looked at the drawings and notes, I have a concern about the viability/efficiency of using a line to create the floating pivot. I would think a stronger and more stable mechanism could be designed. 

    Regarding the Upside down vane, have you checked out Mr. V?  Were I to design a vane, it might due to incorporate their upper half.

    Dennis

       " ...there is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing as simply messing about in junk-rigged boats" 
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