Bolt rope

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  • 27 Jun 2025 07:59
    Reply # 13514856 on 13511433
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    I have only made one junksail with a rope type boltrope around it (1994).

    I followed Vincent Reddish description of doing it, which was said to be more in style with the original Chinese way.

    First, when hemming the luff and leech of each batten panel, I added a cheap PP line inside the luff and leech hem. I may have fastened it with a few stitches at each end; don’t remember.

    Only after all the panels had been sewn together along the battens, did I run an outer boltrope around the whole sail; luff, head, leech and foot.

    I got the rope for this job  from the local sail maker. It was a 7mm 3-strand pre-stretched polyester rope, meant to be used in the luff of jibs, I think. The pre-stretch made it quite hard  -  nothing like an ordinary 3-strand rope. However, it could still be spliced, and this let me splice in hoops for the battens at each batten position.

    This outer boltrope was hand-stitched to the sail, and to that inner boltrope with 3-stich groups, every 15cm or so. In other words, the inner rope was just to spread the load  from those 3-stitch groups. Roping went surprisingly fast, taking me eight hours, including making all those splices.

    When that sail finally started to fall apart due to sunrot (2010), that boltrope was still fine.

    This continuous boltrope was essential, and I think the load on it was highest at the leech of the sail. If your sail is a SJR, it will still be the bolrope around the sail that carries the load.

    Good luck.

    Arne


    Malena's brand new sail in 1994


    ..and in 2010...


    (Full size photo in my Album  -  'My boats' )

    Last modified: 27 Jun 2025 10:51 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 27 Jun 2025 04:23
    Reply # 13514838 on 13511433
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Jeffrey, do read Hasler/McLeod, and keep it beside you for reference. It used to be referred to as "The Bible" but in recent years, some wit declared that it would better be referred to as The Old Testament. The Gospel, or New Testament "Good News" is, of course, the advent of camber in the junk sail, as a result of which the "old Testament" is in need of a few minor updates.  (And that's all I have to say about the Old Testament at this disturbing moment in history).

    You should certainly try the rings for your sheetlets, since you have them. Make the sheetlets of small diameter material, as slippery as possible. I used dyneema because it is thin and strong and I had some. Others, who have much wider experience than me, might be able to give good advice on sheetlets and sheeting systems, but apart from observing a few broad geometric principles, which you can acquire from Hasler/McLeod there are probably just about as many sheeting systems as there are junk rigged boats. Everyone seems to fiddle with their sheeting arrangements until they find something which suits their boat and their personal requirement. I use two sheets on mine - one for the upper panels and one for the lowers - no sheet to the yard - and can control twist effortlessly and also maintain a perfectly straight leech and no sagging of the yard. People who know much more than me are perfectly satisfied with a single sheet and a slightly more complicated "anti-twist" setup. Read the relevant paper in Arne's notes, in the technical section of the documents archive on this website. Your back-to-back blocks (I suppose these are your "fiddle blocks"?) look like very nice blocks and will probably do for your mainsheet, but to me they look too heavy for the sheetlets, and it might be a good idea for you to take them apart - and use your "rings" for the sheetlets, at first, and see how they work out for you. The aim is to get the amount of purchase you want, the control of twist if you are concerned about that - and all with the minimum of friction, since you want the sail to pay out quickly if you have to release the sheets for any reason, even in light airs. (There is the potential for a bit of friction in this rather long length of mainsheet).

    The geometry of potentially possible sheeting arrangements, and the constraints on where blocks can be placed, is very well covered in Hasler McLeod. I don't know what you mean by "head block". Your sheeting system will allow you to sheet the sail in as close to the centre line as you want, including too close. You will be surprised at that. If you are still not satisfied, you can have a travelling arrangement on the deck sheeting position, allowing it to be moved to windward if you like, but I never saw a need for that.

    With junk rig mainsheets being relatively lengthy, you will have quite a bit of spaghetti to deal with at times. Tidy people have bags mounted in the cockpit in which the sheets can be thrown, and out of the way - some even have the sheet tail winding onto a drum. I just throw mine in a heap on the forward part of the cockpit floor and never had a problem. Stuffing surplus sheet into a bag fitted for the purpose is probably the proper way. You don't need to coil it and probably better not to. Hastily flaked down seems less tangle-prone than coiling.

    I wish someone else would chime in, because my experience is relatively limited. All I know is, it's much easier than you think, provided you follow a few sensible principles, and you will work out a way for yourself which works, after a little bit of fooling around to start with. I think it's called "messing about in boats" and it is, most of the time,  mainly quite an enjoyable activity.

    .

    Last modified: 27 Jun 2025 07:29 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 26 Jun 2025 21:30
    Reply # 13514730 on 13511433

    Graeme, thanks for the encouraging words:-)

    I'll admit that I have it not yet read the book. I'll get on that!

    I was just asking about the Rings because I just so happened to have a couple of them. I'm on a pretty tight budget here and they seemed like an option worth investigating. I managed to scratch together some old blocks that should work at least for a while,  or until I find something better. 

    The reason I was asking about sheeting the yard was because I got an odd number of batons. I like the idea off keeping all the sheeting up about the deck as much as possible, but that angle is probably more dictated by the height of the head block. My other thought is that I might be able to pull the sail closer to Center when I am reefed. O and one more reason was because I like the idea of a three part block instead of a two. But I guess I can just rig one panel separately if I want to use a 3 part. 

    Sorry, I'm just kind of talking out loud here. I'll get to reading and hopefully that will answer some questions. I am a  bit of a Chatty Cathy so...

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  • 26 Jun 2025 12:12
    Reply # 13514478 on 13511433
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    I don't think you are missing anything. Bolt rope is not a necessity. Some people like bolt rope, others like webbing. The professional way is probably a tabling. You do what is going to work for you. Slieve recommended a bolt rope for the luff of a jibs panel (that only applies to SJR) and I rather liked the idea so I followed it. It's not a requirement.


    I don't quite follow your question about "rings" and fiddle blocks, but I can tell you that for a small sail, some people have had success with rings instead of blocks (or euphroes) on the sheetlets. I have not seen SS ones, but I have seen special plastic rings which are made for the purpose - made for dinghies I expect. I bought a couple but never tried them because I found some tiny plastic pulley blocks which I liked the look of better. (My sheetlets are made from thin dyneema. The mainsheet is much thicker line. of course, not for strength but for more comfortable handling. It runs through proper sized blocks (which must be adequate for the rope - do not use ,mainsheet blocks which are a tight fit on the rope, or you will regret it)). As for the rings - everyone has their own ideas on sheeting systems.  If you think rings will suit your purpose, get some and try it. I have seen it done.

    The yard is usually heavier than the battens. It carries the weight of the entire bundle, plus downhaul forces if any. When I made my rig I studied books and looked at photos and, of course, the JRA forums, and I never heard of or saw a photo of anyone attaching a sheetlet to the yard, so I thought perhaps it is not necessary, so I didn't do it. Is there any reason why you think you should? (By the way, it is not a bad thing to have a yard which is as long as the battens, even if it is sticking out. Best leave it as it is, unless you have a good reason to shorten it. If you cut it short, then after you have raised and lowered the sail a couple of times you might be able to guess why it was the length it is. It might be a good idea to leave it for now.

    Do you have a copy of Practical Junk Rig by Hasler and McLeod? It is an encyclopedia of the basics of junk rig.  It doesn't cover everything, but if there is anything in the junk rig which is a requirement, I would say it is "required reading" because it outlines the basic concepts in a very comprehensive and detailed way. If you can't find a copy, I think you can download an electronic copy from the JRA library. Hope that helps. Good luck.



    Last modified: 26 Jun 2025 12:31 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 25 Jun 2025 19:49
    Reply # 13514258 on 13511433

    Well yep. 

    There is some fall protection built in to the lazy jacks:-)


    In hindsight, I really wish I would have sown in some webbing around the perimeter of the sale. Would have been a lot easier than working with all this rope, and would have turned out a lot more aesthetically pleasing. I don't understand the necessity for it to be rope instead of webbing. Maybe I'm missing something


    Anyway I think I got a solution that's going to work for me. Next up is getting my  rigging points attached. I have webbing sewing in to the end of my batten pockets so that I can just put an eye splice right in to the webbing. I'm wondering if I can just use some stainless steel rings instead of a fiddle blocks? It would be substantial cost saver. Anybody got experience with rings instead of tackle?

    One more thing. My yard sticks out the same distance as my buttons. Is there any reason not to run the sheet to it?

    (And damn that yard is heavy!) 

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    Last modified: 25 Jun 2025 19:54 | Anonymous member
  • 20 Jun 2025 12:37
    Reply # 13512356 on 13511433
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    That's not the case. The rig should be inside of a lazy-jack cradle and the fact that when the halyard is released the whole thing flops down and stows itself is one of the endearing features of the rig. 

    If the lifts, which form the basis of the lazyjack cradle fail, THEN you have a problerm.

    Last modified: 20 Jun 2025 12:41 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 20 Jun 2025 03:23
    Reply # 13512301 on 13511433

    Another thought


    Do yall wear helmets when sailing? There's basically a scaffolding of material hanging on by a rope above our head. Just a thought  

  • 20 Jun 2025 03:07
    Reply # 13512300 on 13511433

    Well shit

    Paul, I gave it a few tries, but I can't keep cutting up all my dyneema. Shit's just too expensive. I do like that brummel hitch though. Very useful splice. I just can't get it to the right size.


    Graeme, I basically have what you are talking about on the sail. The jiblets have a thin nylon ( yes nylon is stretchy, especially when wet. Think about your tent after it rains... hopefully I cheeped out and got the polyester) and that line is just wiped into a large eye at the top and bottom, as well as a stich at ether sided of the baton pockets. The leach of the jiblets is just a cool looking panel. Then the main has the same at both leach and luff.


    I still don't trust it to hold all the weight of the sail and the down hall pearl. It's ducking heavy. And all of that weight is just hanging up there by the yard!!! Freaking me out man!!!

    I'm going to run nylon up the back side of the main because I got to fit some new baton pockets anyway. And I think I'll sneak a dyneema line up the front of the jib for some piece of mind. 


    My mom will appreciate it. 

  • 19 Jun 2025 08:08
    Reply # 13511950 on 13511943
    Anonymous wrote:

    Paul

    Did you tie an eye splice for each panel? That seems like a lot. I'm using some 6 mm line. I was thinking I might just pass it through itself at the battens. Figured it's got to be strong enough. Otherwise I think I might go crazy trying to get the sizes all perfect. What you think about that?

    Yes

    A seperate bolt rope for each panel with mobius splices each end that slipped over the battens.
    It was very fiddly, but the advantage was that they were trouble free in use. 
    However I do now wonder if that was overkill and that Graeme’s preferred continuous line
    might be better and strong enough when stitched at the Luffs- I’m mindful of Slieve’s mantra, KISS.

     Slieve was very clear that the bolt rope inside the Jiblet luffs should be free inside the hem,
    so that the jiblet rotates freely for either tack.



  • 19 Jun 2025 06:36
    Reply # 13511946 on 13511433
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    I used thin dyneema in one length inside the jibs and mains luffs of my SJR. It goes inside the tiny hem, and runs in one length through all the battens (actually, my battens are two parts, one each side anyway). I threw a few stitches in here and there along the luffs, and simply belayed the one piece bolt rope at the yard and at the boom. No eye splice, just a couple of turns and a hitch.

    I used dyneema, not so much for strength, but I wanted something as thin as possible which I was sure would not stretch. Nylon stretches a bit, doesn't it?

    I think it is a nice thing on a SJR to have nice straight luffs and by making sure that the bolt rope on the mains is about the same length as the boltrope on the jibs, and it stays that way, you achieve that straight jibs luff nicely by tensioning up with the running parrel downhauls, which work so well on that Amiina rig. The running downhauls tension against the halyard.

    The downward force on the downhauls need not be great - just tweak firm with one hand and belay. (Not "twang tight" like the bermuda jib luff needs to be). So I don't think the bolt rope needs to be incredibly strong,  but if the relative length of the two boltropes (mains and jibs) gets significantly out of whack because of stretching, then that convenient little adjustment might not work so well as it does.

    (Actually, I think my mains bolt rope might be a smidgeon long, but the battens are flexible enough to bend slightly under the very moderate load of the downhauls. The result is, the parrel down hauls whose spans put a little bit of downward tension onto each of the battens, makes the jibs luff satisfyingly straight under very, very moderate tension).

    The luff "entry" of the jibs, with that slim boltrope, is better than webbing or a heavy tabling on a SJR. (I imagine that, anyway). I like a nice tabling for the leech, but a bolt rope is justified on the jibs luff since it is completely out of the way of the mast, and the jibs entry is carefully made to be as aerodynamic as possible, since that's part of the reason for having them, isn't it?. It might not make a lot of difference, but it's all good fun and just as easy as a webbing or tabling, so why not?


    Last modified: 19 Jun 2025 07:05 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
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