Van de Stadt 36 Seal - JR conversion

  • 15 May 2026 04:17
    Reply # 13632083 on 9338306

    Thanks Graeme for the great reply.

    I had looked at that drawing and couldn't work out why the CE of the proposed sloop sail had been placed there. I don't know who did the drawing, it might have been the gentleman who was looking into converting his Van de Stadt Seal at the start of this thread.

    It seems as if the CE of the original rig is just forward of the original mast. The boat seemed balanced with its original rig so maybe as you say we can just place of new rig CE over the old rig CE.

    A mast location just aft of the forward bulkhead that divides the forepeak and saloon is the most ideal. The mast partner would benefit from having a bulkhead right next to it too I imagine. If the mast moves forward its right in the main berth. And yes as you say, if its rigged with two masts then I think a high balanced split rig wouldn't work.

    The higher mast to fit the split just sail area is a little worrying as I think a tall mast for a sloop rig will already be very heavy. It might not matter and I may be wrong but just a thought.

  • 15 May 2026 03:07
    Reply # 13632061 on 9338306
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Personally, I have a strong preference for high balance, and I like my 33% balance SJR very much, but there are some theoretical matters which need to be considered. 

    Here is a theoretical answer, referring (for simplicity) to your single mast proposed rig.

    (I suspect you might know all this already, but for the record, here goes):

    The question of split junk rig, or non-split rig. for a single mast rig, depends on where you intend to place the mast. SJR usually only makes sense if your sail is intended to have high balance, ideally 33%.  Anything much less than this and you are probably better off with an unsplit sail. 

    If the boat sailed well (satisfactory helm balance) with the original rig, then a good starting point, if possible, would be a scale drawing showing the original sail plan, or at least the position of the geometric centre (CE) of the original sail plan. You can then draw your proposed junk sail with its geometric centre (CE) positioned over the same vertical line. (Usually the mid point of the boom establishes this vertical line through the junk sail CE, with sufficient accuracy.

    After that, your desired mast balance for the sail will determine the position of the mast.

    Or, conversely, your desired mast position will determine the amount of balance you are going to end up with.

    The SJR, with its higher balance, will mean a mast placed a little further aft than it would be for a lower balance sail such as the Hasler McLeod sail you have drawn.

    [Is the "present CE" you show on your drawing, the CE of the original rig? If so, then the vertical line through the midpoint of the boom you show on your junk sail drawing should align with this point. In other words, I think your your proposed sail plan may be placed too far aft.]

    [If the mast position you show on your drawing is where it has to be, because of internal accommodation requirements, then it follows that your sail will need to have high balance, in which case SJR may be your best choice. If you were prepared to have the mast further forward, then your sail would need a lower balance, and a contiguous (unsplit sail) will make more sense.]

    Assuming the CE you have drawn is the CE of the original rig, this is what I think a SJR would look like. (This is Slieve's well-proven Amiina Mk2 sail). 

    This is an approximate drawing only, I don't claim to be a rig designer, but it looks to me as though a 33% balance SJR would suit your chosen mast position very well. Perhaps you should check with Slieve. (Note, you will need a slightly taller mast for a given sail area, with this type of sail).

    My opinion is, if you decide to go for an unsplit sail, such as one of Arne's Johanna sails, or a HM sail, then you are going to have somewhat lower balance, and will need to move the mast further forward than shown on your proposed drawing. Perhaps you should check that with Arne. (Also, the lower balance/higher yard-angle sail would allow a slightly shorter mast for a given sail area, than for a high balance/low yard angle SJR sail).

    My final thought is, if you decide on schooner rig such as you have drawn, then the same principle of matching CEs applies - and also, in that case, I see no point in SJR and in any case I would urge you to consult with Arne or others who have experience designing junk rigs.

    Last modified: 15 May 2026 03:49 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 14 May 2026 22:02
    Reply # 13631948 on 9338306

    Hello,

    I'm now the owner of the Van de Stadt Seal 'Ms Murphy' based in Northland New Zealand, for the second time, having just recently bought it back from the guy I sold it to. She is in a sorry state but slowly coming back to the boat she used to be.

    One element of her lack of care means the rig is in a sorry state. She will need a new main sail, new standing and running rigging and a few other bits and pieces. Id much rather have a junk rigged boat, so Id like to look into the option for ditching the old pointy rig and put a junk on her.

    As mentioned in this thread she needs about 75-80m2 of sail to match the old rig. For the sake of building and simplicity Id prefer a sloop rig but understand this will be a large sail. Im also interested in using a split junk rig as I find the design appealing and it should put the single mast in a convenient place.

    Can anyone point me in the right direction to start seeing if this is possible. I imagined a steel mast, mainly as the boat is steel but understand that might be a heavy option. 

    We intend to take her offshore up to the Islands in two years, maybe making her the first split rig to go offshore which would be interesting. I also have around 6-9months of thinking time before I can start the refit and rerig as I need to finish house projects first. The document attached is from this thread when the other Seal owner was looking into a conversion and is drawn with a cambered panel sail.

    Keen for any help with where to get started.

    Thank you!

    2 files
  • 19 Nov 2020 19:23
    Reply # 9376044 on 9338306
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Eero.

    now I had a look at that calculation tool, made by Oscar Fröberg.

    When choosing mast material as Norwegian Spruce, its density is given as 0.43.
    Then I look at your .xls file where you say the density of spruce is 0.63 (630 kg/m3). That makes a whole lot of difference:
    If you multiply your found weight of 298kg with 0.43/0.63, the mast will come out with

    Wm = 298kg x 0.43 : 0.63 = 203kg.

    The rule of fancy algorithms is: “Put garbage in and you will get garbage out”.

    In my world we reckon the density of dry spruce to be around 0.52, give or take  2%.
    If the other algorithms are ok and the density is 0.52, then the weight should come out at

    Wm = 298 x 0.52 : 0.63 =246kg.

    That would only add about 2.5% to the boat’s displacement, so should be good.

    Arne

    PS: I also note that the Sigma of spruce is set to 72MPa. In my calculations I have used the much more modest 45MPa. Maybe I am too pessimistic...


  • 19 Nov 2020 17:23
    Reply # 9375812 on 9374993
    Anonymous wrote:

    according to the junk rig calculation tool of oscar froberg a steel mast for 16300kpm could be a 300/6mm tube – a bit heavy…

    ueli

    Nice tool!

    With this tool i would estimate the weight of spruce mast roughly to 200 kg. 

    I wonder?? I have tried to estimate it and I am always around 300 kg. Attached.


    1 file
  • 19 Nov 2020 11:30
    Reply # 9374993 on 9338306

    according to the junk rig calculation tool of oscar froberg a steel mast for 16300kpm could be a 300/6mm tube – a bit heavy…

    ueli

    Last modified: 19 Nov 2020 11:33 | Anonymous member
  • 19 Nov 2020 09:36
    Reply # 9374844 on 9338306
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Hans-Erik, that is the hard part.

    To find the scantlings of a mast, one can approach it from two angles.

    Either do as in Chapter 6b of TCPJR and start with guessing on the boat’s ultimate righting moment:
    With a displacement of 9250kg and with 3300kg ballast, I would guess the righting arm to be 1/5 of the beam of vessel (3.54m).

    The ultimate righting moment, should then be
    Mr = 9250kg x 3.54m x 0.20 = 6549kpm.

    If we choose the mast strength to be 2.5 times Mr, the mast must take 16373kpm.Then one can produce a mast  in any material with this strength in mind.

    This method doesn’t count with sail area or LAP, but as long as the LAP is not extreme, I think we get away with it. A very tall mast will suffer quite some additional loads due to pitching, but this factor is hard to quantify. That's why we have safety factors...

    The other approach to find a wooden mast, is to go to Chapter 6 and use my modified Hasler-McLeod method. This would result in a hollow spruce mast with 34cm diameter (check it, yourself). Since Finland is full of spruce trees, that could be an affordable alternative.

    On such a big steel (?) vessel, a steel tube mast could be an alternative, but that is outside my area of experience. I hope Paul Thompson could help us there.

    Arne


  • 19 Nov 2020 05:12
    Reply # 9374619 on 9338306

    Greetings Arne,

    In your various suggestions for a large sail sloop rig for Falkor you state “The biggest challenge is to build a tall and strong enough mast at a moderate weight and cost.”

    What would be the specs for a suitable mast in, for example, your most recent iteration of a 65.6 square metre sail?


  • 18 Nov 2020 15:30
    Reply # 9372907 on 9338306
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Good, Eero.
    Then I guess I would suggest one of the two last rigs I have presented.
    The light winds in the Bay of Finland during summer, speaks for the last one; the one with AR= 2.40 and SA= 65.6sqm.
    However, we don’t get younger as the years go by, and the shorter 13.4m mast is cheaper and easier to deal with than the one at 14.9m...

    As for performance; even the smallest JR will outperform the masthead Bermuda rig on the downwind leg. Close-hauled, I guess I would put my money on the BR, in light winds.

    The only ‘hard’ job when sailing with a JR, is hoisting the sail. On your boat, that can easily be overcome with an electric capstan. Some of these are meant for hauling up the anchor, and are not terribly expensive. Hoisting the sail from bottom to top will drain a 12V battery with less than an Ampère-hour.

    Anyway, rigging the boat with two sticks will cost a lot more  -  I would say, forget that.


    When organising the sheet, it is important to give them a good layout to make them easy to haul at by hand and via manual winches.

    Arne

    PS: I have sent the drawing in QCAD (.DXF format) to David, to let him suggest a rig. If others will have a go, and can handle that format, just let me know.

    PPS: In case the mast position I have suggested results in awkward access to the fore-peak, the mast may well be moved 10-15cm forward, and it can even be offset 10-15cm to one side, without suffering any handling problems.


    Last modified: 18 Nov 2020 23:21 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 18 Nov 2020 14:36
    Reply # 9372814 on 9338306

    Arne, David, Graeme,

    Thanks for your comments and input. Very much appreciated!

    Arne, in the scale (0-100) I would say I am 45% sailor. Pure cruising. Focus is on safe, comfortable, and enjoyable sailing. The crew is 60 year-old couple, whose idea is to leave the regular work within say 2-3 years and the boat will be our liveaboard for maybe 6 months per year. Nowadays we sail the ‘normal’ summer holiday sailing i.e. daily trips along coasts of Gulf of Finland and Northern Baltic Sea. But once we get rid of the tight schedules, the trips will get longer but leisured. We can keep the boat abroad and no need to dock the boat for every winter. Perhaps not crossing oceans but exploring canals, rivers etc might be nice. For that purpose, a shorter mast(s) would be nice as they could be carried on deck if the overhang is not too much. For that reason, we have also considered if we should switch the boat to a smaller one with a smaller draught. But on the other hand, this is a nice and cozy liveaboard boat giving very safe and comfort ride at open sea.

    The present sail area is main 25.7, furling genoa 37.3 making 63m2 in total (hopefully I managed to measure them correctly). We have a few more sails, but in practice we keep those home. I would guess that a JR of the same size would be much more efficient downwind, as without a spinnaker/gennaker we loose a lot of effective area of the genoa. The present balance is quite good I would say based on the rudder angle. Difficult to say because the hydraulic steering gives almost none sense of the pressure. I am used to tiller, which I keep as my favorite way for steering.

    Eero