Van de Stadt 36 Seal - JR conversion

  • 19 May 2026 00:37
    Reply # 13633240 on 9338306

    I support everyone's requests!

    Keep writing, Slieve, because everything you've written so far is very interesting!

    Last modified: 19 May 2026 00:38 | Anonymous member
  • 18 May 2026 16:41
    Reply # 13633007 on 9338306
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    The hybrid HM-SJR

    I have never sailed with a SJR. However, I can read, and from a sailing point of view, it appears to work very well.

    My only reason for taking the trouble and make a SJR would be that the mast position forces me to make the sail with mast balance up in the thirties.
    However; I feel that the low angle yards which come with the SJR waste a good deal of sail area for a given mast height.

    I have therefore rebuilt the top section of the already modified Amiina type SJR.

    First step was to decide on the yard angle.
    This depends on four factors:

    • ·         Yard length; here it is the same as the boom and battens.
    • ·         Halyard’s position on the yard, here 5% aft of the middle.
    • ·         Halyard angle, here 10°.
    • ·         Gross halyard drift, here 0.18 B

    The resulting yard angle came out at about 48°.

    From there I built up the two top panels so that batten one divides the angle between the yard and lower battens on the middle.

    Finally, I removed the two upper panels from David’s 6-panel sail and moved my new section in place.

    This sail will need a YHP and THP, and maybe even one or two HK parrels. Still, with more than two panels set and with these running parrels set up correctly, I see no reason why the SJR lower section should not work.

    The advantage with the setup is, as said, to have more sail area for a given mast height, and, in addition, less friction due to reduced halyard angle.

    NOTE: I will not recommend this big and untried rig until someone has actually built and tested it.

    Regards from my armchair,
    Arne

    PS: I still hope to actually get to sail my Ingeborg within mid-summer. I have been on board three times; twice for coffee and a yarn, and one for firing up the outboard engine. Mr. Tohatsu delivers!

    (full size diagram in Arne's sketches, section 9)

    Last modified: 18 May 2026 22:02 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 18 May 2026 16:11
    Reply # 13632997 on 9338306

    Steady on gents. You're getting ahead of me and designing a new rig. 

    I suggest you wait until you get the Mk.2 details. Unfortunately I will not get them out in one day as I have just had another important problem dumped on my desk which must get priority treatment. Enough to say that some of my earlier etchings should be of use and should be helpful. 

    One problem is how to publish them. They may be too big to simply post on the website, with their attached files.

    It's great to see your entheusism, but please let me catch up in a couple of days.

    Cheers, Slieve.

  • 18 May 2026 11:49
    Reply # 13632901 on 13632879
    Arne wrote:

    I liked David T.’s  gentle modification to the Amiina Mk.2 SJR, so now I have scaled it up and plonked onto that poor Seal 36. This puts the mast even further away from the bow.
    I am unsure of where the exact fore-aft position of the sail should be. Same with mast length. Tell me what halyard angle is acceptable.


    Btw. I just had a look at Martin Brown’s Custard; the latest Boat of the Month. By raising the yard angle, he has in my view solved the halyard angle issue. I guess I have to make another mod to David’s SJR...

    Cheers,
    Arne

    Arne,

    Without long-term experience of sailing with SJR, I for one am reluctant to change the yard angle and length by very much, as this was Slieve's starting point in designing low stress into the rig. I note that Poppy has a yard angle of 40˚, though, and perhaps the mk2 top panel should be split into two smaller panels, for a large rig, so as to make their leech lengths shorter. So here’s a sail that I'd be happy to take to sea. Yard angle 36˚ from the horizontal, halyard angle 15˚ and two top panels that have the same leech length as the lower panels and would be reassuringly well-behaved as mid-ocean storm canvas.

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    Last modified: 18 May 2026 12:58 | Anonymous member
  • 18 May 2026 11:44
    Reply # 13632897 on 9338306
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Lucky Thomas. David, Slieve and Arne are three true pioneers of the modern junk rig, each with slightly different ideas, and David has probably designed, built and tested more different types (except the SJR!) than anyone. You are surely in good hands.

    Thomas, let me add to the pressure you are piling onto Slieve to get those notes updated and completed. That would indeed be a great outcome.

    David (and now Arne) – the two different mast heights shown on that drawing - I really must take issue (again). I don’t have much to offer in the way of actual experience (not compared with you guys) but I have rigged a SJR with a mast height equivalent to the lower of the two, which appear as alternatives, and I can state that it won’t work very well. Not with a conventional halyard arrangement and soft mast parrels anyway. If you can fully hoist the sail with that 25-degree halyard angle, without needing a cup of tea and a lie down afterwards – then the next thing you will need is a plethora of extra parrels, of every description, to get the sail to drape properly. That’s not how a SJR should be. Properly tuned, and with a sufficient mast height, nothing more than Slieve’s spanned running parrel-downhauls are needed for the Amiina Mk ll sail for a perfect set. (I take Slieve’s point that they need not be spanned, and I take David’s point that they have not been tested in ocean passage conditions, and that more control might be advisable in that  case. But you will get my drift). I increased the mast height on mine – not quite as high as the high one shown as the alternative, in the drawing – but I wish I could. Mine’s only a bit over halfway between. A bit higher would be better, but it made a huge difference to everything.

    (I believe that when Amiina was set up, they had an over-size mast and just used it as it was, and if so if would have been a success, and any possible problem arising from a mast too short was quite possibly never thought of, as the problem never arose.)

    Arne – interesting that you give credit to Martin and his Custard for solving the “halyard angle issue”. While not wishing to take anything away from Martin, a couple of things crossed my mind immediately. Firstly, I might be wrong, but it looks as though the mast balance of Custard is a bit less than 33% (I might be wrong, we need to check) and also, in the Magazine No. 83 article it states that Martin used ultra short, very slippery mast parrels. Both of these things may be contributing to the solution of that issue.

    At some stage I would like to see a discussion about rigid mast parrels, because that's where the answer may properly lie. I think Steve D (Serenity) and Jan Cz with his little boat may have cracked it. (Wingsails and double wishbone aerojunk sails ditto).

    And Thomas – whatever type of sail you finally decide on, a photographic diary of the conversion of your boat will be greatly appreciated, both in the magazine and the website archives. I have a feeling it’s going to be pretty good.


    Last modified: 19 May 2026 07:03 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 18 May 2026 10:02
    Reply # 13632880 on 9338306

    Ha! I’ve just been doing the scaling-up exercise, too, Arne!

    2 files
  • 18 May 2026 09:47
    Reply # 13632879 on 9338306
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    I liked David T.’s  gentle modification to the Amiina Mk.2 SJR, so now I have scaled it up and plonked onto that poor Seal 36. This puts the mast even further away from the bow.
    I am unsure of where the exact fore-aft position of the sail should be. Same with mast length. Tell me what halyard angle is acceptable.


    Btw. I just had a look at Martin Brown’s Custard; the latest Boat of the Month. By raising the yard angle, he has in my view solved the halyard angle issue. I guess I have to make another mod to David’s SJR...

    Cheers,
    Arne


    (Full size diagrams in Arne's sketches, Section 9)

  • 17 May 2026 23:47
    Reply # 13632771 on 9338306

    Hi Guys,

    Thank you for such positive comments. I've been looking at some of my 'First Chapters' and have found one in particular along with some very useful emails which could be the start of a useful document, so give me a day please and I'll see what I can do.

    The offers of help are very encouraging, and mean that I can't stop the ball rolling so easily.

    Thanks,

    Sieve.

  • 17 May 2026 23:33
    Reply # 13632766 on 9338306

    What a good outcome this thread would be to get something like this document produced.

    I'm young and hardly rich in time with a job and three young kids, but my fingers still work and I have experience in creating documents etc. I'm happy to put my name down to help create the document. We could have it as a Google doc or similar that would allow easy access for contributions from more than one person. Also, perhaps for those who would benefit, I could transcribe from voice recordings too, maybe better than AI as I'll understand some of the technical words. I don't have a good drawing program so Davids help here would be helpful. 

    And a last thought, if I end up undertaking the process of converting the Seal to a SJR then I could document the process with great detail to accompany the build notes. 

    It also means a lot David to hear your positive words about this rig being something you would install if you had the time and ability. My first junk exposure was on Tystie with Gordon that helped cement the desire to rerig.

  • 17 May 2026 20:13
    Reply # 13632727 on 9338306

    Thanks for the drawing, Arne.

    Here is a version along the lines that Slieve suggested: about half a panel’s worth of height added, then the area split into 5 parallelograms and the quadrilateral top panel, with six sheeted battens. To my eye, this is a well-proportioned sail with an AR of about 1.8 and probably as much sail as there should be on 5m battens, with an area of 45.6 sq m. If it’s scaled up, in proportion, to fit 6m battens, the area is about 65 sq m, so that’s about right for the Seal 36.

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