Catamaran Thoughts

  • 08 Sep 2019 17:22
    Reply # 7869953 on 7869048
    Deleted user

    Just an aside.......... On Ebay right now is a mast bargain...... for $400 if you pick it up in North Carolina.   A 36' "mast stub" from a Freedom 44.  It is on the other side of the country, but at that price would be worth the drive.... If I had an application for it.

    From what I know of these, the carbon fiber is sheathed with glass that is simply spun on over it........ a poor idea..... This looks like the top portion... I would guess that it snapped at the gooseneck.  Estimates of air draft range from 52-55' including antennas, etc.   Since the fiberglass sheathing was simply wrapped without any cross hatching or anything, they tended to develop cracks through the fiberglass, and for some reason that would sometimes propagate into the carbon beneath, but considering the location, it likely is hurricane damage.  These originally used a wishbone rather than a conventional boom, but many were converted to a normal boom...... or at least that's what I understand.  I think the factory later offered them with a normal boom.  A poor job of installing a gooseneck fitting could easily have compromised the mast and resulted in failure I would think.                     H.W.

    Carbon Fiber Mast Stub For Freedom 44 Sailboat. This stub is approx. 36 feet, tapered from 9.5"  to 5".

  • 08 Sep 2019 16:36
    Reply # 7869898 on 7869392
    Deleted user
    Anonymous wrote:

    What about a stayed mast?

    Howard,

    from time to time, I have also been pondering this subject. One thing is how to support a freestanding mast. That may in many cases be solved, somehow. The other challenge is to find some sort of rule-of thumb as for the strength of the mast.

    A third question is how to make an automatic sheet-release or sheet-brake device to avoid capsizing or overstressing the mast.

    One can quite easily find the max righting moment of a cat by multiplying its displacement with half the beam. However, the resulting righting moment is so far beyond that of a monohull, that it would require an overheavy mast (aluminium), or an over-expensive one (carbon).

    Then there is the question of simply staying the mast. There are two arguments against that on a monohull:

    ·         Since the shrouds has to be from the mast top, the shroud angles will be very fine and the unsupported pole (mast) under compression will be very long. In other words, the shrouds will add stress to, rather than relieve it from the mast.

    ·         Shrouds are in the way when we want to square out the sail for downwind sailing.

    However, on a wide beam catamaran the shroud base will be so wide that the compression stress may be reduced enough to make it work. A bit serious engineering has to be done, but a cat is a result of serious engineering, anyway. A pair of shrouds, set well forward, and a pair of aft shrouds, set as far aft as is practical, is all that is needed. One may even support the mast at the partners and step to reduce the problem with compression loads (reducing the ‘compression length’).

    As for sailing downwind, a cat may just as well be broad-reached instead of running straight before (faster). It may therefore not be such a big disadvantage with those aft shrouds (Btw. forget about running backstays)

    As for the matter of making a sheet-release devise. I think the simplest and most reliable would be to make a sort of sheet brake or elastic devise, set up to ease the sheet as the load exceeds a preset limit. This should be easy enough to make and adjust.

    From the safe position of my armchair  -

    cheers,
    Arne




    Arne:

       I see lots of reasons not to use a stayed mast, particularly the fact that not having a hundred components to fail, and to inspect and maintain and replace is a huge load off the mind, and pocket book.    And of course you are not working around stays and shrouds, or in this case just aft shrouds and a forestay.

        In the original post, I was pondereing the comparison of monohulls and cats in terms of mast strength based ONLY on righting moment.   On a monohull righting moment is the only factor, as for practical purposes they will not move sideways or accelerate under the force of a gust at anything like enough of a rate to absorb the forces.... a multihull is a different kettle of fish.  At least a light weight one is.   "whiplash acceleration" is the norm, so where a monohull rolls, a multihull accelerates.  This tells me that something must be able to absorb the initial force... flex in the mast, perhaps a step and partner setup that utilizes polyurethane rubber for some give, perhaps both, but like a spring taking up that force, it will be released as energy driving the boat forward more than lifting a hull.  Take Sagitta.... which is as you know a boat that appeals to me greatly..... 2.7T loaded displacement...  50cm draft, it doesn't take much to get it going.    Then look at for example an Alberg 30   Same LOA, but 4.5T displacement and 130cm draft.  The dynamics are radically different.

           An aluminum mast on a cat should probably be made from 6061  T6, 7075 T6 would be better in a spring temper, both of which have some spring and resilience to them.  Neither is available in tapered columns like a flagpole or light pole such as Roger Taylor used on MingMing II..... Probably 6063 or one of the 50 series.   Wood, particularly Douglas Fir or Sitka Spruce would be good in this respect, as would fiberglass or carbon fiber.   I've looked at ways to construct a carbon fiber mast, and do not see a really simple method.   Probably the most interesting method would be to construct from pultruded unidirectional carbon fiber rod, which runs from one source about $25 per meter in 12.5 MM dia, but they don't list long lengths. This sort of material is often used in wing spar construction for the spar caps..I'm not quite sure how they would be incorporated into a mast, but have several ideas.

          Considering the destruction of these annual hurricanes in the Caribbean and Gulf of Mexico, one would think that somewhere there are some wrecked Freedoms with salvageable masts.    But how does one go about finding them?    It would be interesting to know a bit about Pete's masts on Oryx.   The wood he used, the dimensions, etc.   He was clearly pretty conservative.  All I know is 53.16 sq.m sail area, 8.5M mast above deck, hollow douglas fir.....   Almost the same exact sail area of the stock shorter KD 860, a ton more displacement, 1.4M more LOA.  I'd be interested in how he engineered the masts.   The original was listed as having an RM of 5600 KGM.  The beam being the same, the displacement 33% greater, Oryx would it seem have an RM of 7465 KGM.  


    I'm not sure I really understand righting moment and how it plays into mast engineering.  Apparently at some point the boat above would take 5600 kg to lift one hull.  The fact that the total weight of the boat is 3000 kg, suggests that this point would be quite low.  It definitely is not a vertical force on one hull, which would seem to be less than 1500 kg.  As iit is listed as KGM, I'm assuming that it is torque, probably about the rotational axis of the lleeward  hull, or 5600 kg at a point 1M out from this rotational axis.  That suggests that one would divide this figure by the  meters to the linear distance to the vertical CofE to find the force that would need to be applied to the sails to lift the hull.  Thus the higher the CofE, the lower the force required to overcome the righting moment.    That is how I read this, but it is a static value only, and wind is not static.   Say the straight line distance to the CofE from the rotational axis is 10M, only 506 kg would be required to lift one hull, but that force would have to be at right angles to the line between these two points.   In a gust, the forces could it would seem reach or exceed 10x or the actual righting moment of 5600 kg at that point.  Since the vectors do not align, the need  mast strength goes up.   The vertical CofE on a Bermuda rig is liable to be fairly low, well below half the total luff height of the sail.  On a junk rig it will be considerably higher as a percentage of the luff, so a shorter mast is called for.   The question is how much force per sqm of sail area does one need to design for?    The calculations are all doable though it all looks pretty complicated to me    ;-(

         Fused sheets or slip clutches are clearly called for, also mast failure is preferable to capsize I would think when far out to sea.   The mast itself should be the ultimate "fuse" to protect the life of the crew.


                                                            H.W.

  • 08 Sep 2019 15:02
    Reply # 7869826 on 7869539
    Deleted user

    Anonymous wrote:

    Once the mental hurdle is overcome in accepting bilateral asymmetry, there are, IMO possibilities with this config, and fortunately,  being OK with the sail to one side of the mast, Junk style ,is a good starting point. 

    Bernd Kholer has had some success with his 'Cataproa', so certainly in small size it is doable, at least with a rig that includes a short mast and is missing a few panels and without the Junk sheeting system.

    Next step could be to continue the asymmetry concept in the area of accomodation, the deck layout and cabin, which would do a world of good in helping to get a larger craft onto a trailer and keeping within width limits for road haulage.

    On the water, distribution of payload would mean readjustment to trim-out like a catamaran.

    Stepping the mast in one hull could be good in making for a taller rig.

    Then, being able at times to keep it short is probably the better way to go, considering that a junk sail is a fine way to maximise sail area with a short mast.

    Sure it has been the done thing (by Pete Hill and others) to double-up short rigs , but there could be a performance advantage in a marginally taller single main mast configuration, and to include the use of a very short foremast and bowsprit in the same hull, rather than go squat biplane

    This would be similar the configuration I used on my boat JungJung, which is where the second mast is  useful in maximising sail area and in lowering or lifting the mast.

    With the mainmast stepped at the fore side of the hull's connection beam, a slot in the foredeck and case below, would allow the mast heel to swing from a tabernacle and go up or down when on the water.

    Sailing in light airs would  have the junk sail carried higher, or light un-battened sails used in situ or instead.

    As conditions deteriorate, or preferably in good time before they do so, sail comes down to make for a short/ heavy weather rig, that uses quickly set up stays and shrouds to take care of support and keep sailing.

    In the light of extreme/deep cyclonic conditions, the mainmast is lowered and lashed down. so that the craft can be left to fend for itself/herself, lying with drogues trailing astern( in order to protect the rudders).

    Having a mainmast that lowers including less windage associated with the asymmetric accomodation structure could just be reason to consider duplicate hulls (cat config) with their stern hung rudders. 

     

    Jeremy:

            You are treading a line very close to Rob  Denny's Harry Proa... Two masts in one hull, and the accommodations in the opposite hull.   Essentially a Pacific Proa, it differs significantly from most Pacific Proas.  With double ender hulls, a cat could be set up that way....... say a variant on the Wharrams.   The cargo and accommodations largely in the windward hull, and the mast(s) carried in the lee hull, there would be considerable stability to be had.  His decks are open fore to aft, and the cabin extends out over the deck from the windward hull, with the companion facing to lee, which makes sense.   This provides wind shelter on deck near the cabin wall, and also provides lots of open deck and a clear fore and aft path for accessing sails and masts easily and safely.  With a cat built sort of along this line.... the mast(s) in the lee hull, it could be tacked or shunted, depending on which was more practical (depending on conditions and circumstances).   Why he goes with the heavy and complex and expensive AeroRig with it's carbon fiber mast mounted in bearings, carrying Bermuda rig sails, rather than a junk rig I don't know, except that like nearly all designers he is focused on performance above all else.     His rudders, are bidirectional and kick up, and retractable, mounted next to the hull(s) inboard, rather than beneath or behind, and potentially the forward one could serve to counter leeway, much as a four wheel steered machine can crab sideways.  Deployed opposite each other, the rate or turn would be phenomenal.....the bow being forced pushed starboard, and the stern port at the same time, or vice versa.

    Look at these and tell me if it doesn't look like they need a junk rig   ;-)

                                                                 H.W.

    Note that I included two different boats here, one as a link and the other an included file....Not sure which is the better option.


    https://boatgoldcoast.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/harryproa-gold-coast-1440x564_c.jpg




    1 file
    Last modified: 08 Sep 2019 15:05 | Deleted user
  • 08 Sep 2019 09:41
    Reply # 7869631 on 7869599
    Deleted user
    Anonymous wrote:

    Jeremy wrote …considering that a junk sail is a fine way to maximise sail area with a short mast.

    You’ld think so, and that’s what I thought too, but when you get right down to it, it does’t really turn out to be the case.

    The only way to get big sail area on a short mast seems to be the sprit rig.

    (Or, I suppose, maybe gunter rig - or lateen rig, but you can't really count lateen rig.)


    Yes, a sprits'l is one better than a battened lug, and that is what is carried on the short foremast of the rig I was talking about. On the mains'l, the yard can be peaked much like a Gunter, and the upper battens spread the area out most effectively at the height of the masthead......however high that happens to be
  • 08 Sep 2019 08:21
    Reply # 7869607 on 7869048
    Deleted user

    Interesting to read this thread which reflects some of my own thinking in my current catamaran build. I have spent a lot of the last 4 months writing a new book so boat-building progress has been slow. However 12 months after starting the project I now have two upright hulls. The book project is finished so more time can now be devoted to catamaran building.

    So I am now back to pondering rig options on my little boat. Going to the default bermudan rig seems like a bit of a cop-out so I am still keen to pursue junk type rig options. Once I get into bridge deck construction over the next couple of months I will be able to get more idea of what I can do with the space available.

    Graeme mentioned a gunter rig which is actually a designed option for the boat I am building. I spent all of my teenage years sailing a gunter rig yacht, ( a Zeddie for older Kiwi members!), so I am very familiar with this type of rig.

    2 files
    Last modified: 08 Sep 2019 08:26 | Deleted user
  • 08 Sep 2019 07:40
    Reply # 7869599 on 7869048
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Jeremy wrote …considering that a junk sail is a fine way to maximise sail area with a short mast.

    You’ld think so, and that’s what I thought too, but when you get right down to it, it does’t really turn out to be the case.

    The only way to get big sail area on a short mast seems to be the sprit rig.

    (Or, I suppose, maybe gunter rig - or lateen rig, but you can't really count lateen rig.)


    Last modified: 08 Sep 2019 08:01 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 08 Sep 2019 05:12
    Reply # 7869539 on 7869048
    Deleted user

    Once the mental hurdle is overcome in accepting bilateral asymmetry, there are, IMO possibilities with this config, and fortunately,  being OK with the sail to one side of the mast, Junk style ,is a good starting point. 

    Bernd Kholer has had some success with his 'Cataproa', so certainly in small size it is doable, at least with a rig that includes a short mast and is missing a few panels and without the Junk sheeting system.

    Next step could be to continue the asymmetry concept in the area of accomodation, the deck layout and cabin, which would do a world of good in helping to get a larger craft onto a trailer and keeping within width limits for road haulage.

    On the water, distribution of payload would mean readjustment to trim-out like a catamaran.

    Stepping the mast in one hull could be good in making for a taller rig.

    Then, being able at times to keep it short is probably the better way to go, considering that a junk sail is a fine way to maximise sail area with a short mast.

    Sure it has been the done thing (by Pete Hill and others) to double-up short rigs , but there could be a performance advantage in a marginally taller single main mast configuration, and to include the use of a very short foremast and bowsprit in the same hull, rather than go squat biplane

    This would be similar the configuration I used on my boat JungJung, which is where the second mast is  useful in maximising sail area and in lowering or lifting the mast.

    With the mainmast stepped at the fore side of the hull's connection beam, a slot in the foredeck and case below, would allow the mast heel to swing from a tabernacle and go up or down when on the water.

    Sailing in light airs would  have the junk sail carried higher, or light un-battened sails used in situ or instead.

    As conditions deteriorate, or preferably in good time before they do so, sail comes down to make for a short/ heavy weather rig, that uses quickly set up stays and shrouds to take care of support and keep sailing.

    In the light of extreme/deep cyclonic conditions, the mainmast is lowered and lashed down. so that the craft can be left to fend for itself/herself, lying with drogues trailing astern( in order to protect the rudders).

    Having a mainmast that lowers including less windage associated with the asymmetric accomodation structure could just be reason to consider duplicate hulls (cat config) with their stern hung rudders. 

    Last modified: 08 Sep 2019 05:18 | Deleted user
  • 08 Sep 2019 03:01
    Reply # 7869518 on 7869398
    Deleted user
    Anonymous wrote:

    Has anyone tried a single mast set into one of the hulls and set up like an Atlantic Proa? I have not seen any reports of this being tried, has anyone else? This would use an unstayed mast and would have the bury and structure to make it a reasonable option. Mast sizing would have to be done based on sail area and wind pressure, and in sailing the cat extra care would be needed to make sure that the rig was not over pressed, as can easily be done on a catamaran with its large initial stability. The sheet release system proposed by Arne could be the answer to this.

    David.


     I've toyed with the single mast in one hull idea myself.... Having followed Rob Denny's Harry Proa designs a bit makes it seem a more realistic option.    I've come around gradually to the notion that on a cat the biplane rig makes the most sense.

       

                                                 H.W.

  • 08 Sep 2019 00:23
    Reply # 7869435 on 7869398
    David Webb wrote:

    Has anyone tried a single mast set into one of the hulls and set up like an Atlantic Proa? I have not seen any reports of this being tried, has anyone else? This would use an unstayed mast and would have the bury and structure to make it a reasonable option. Mast sizing would have to be done based on sail area and wind pressure, and in sailing the cat extra care would be needed to make sure that the rig was not over pressed, as can easily be done on a catamaran with its large initial stability. The sheet release system proposed by Arne could be the answer to this.

    David.

    I am sure this would work, David.  Perhaps the main objection to it is the human desire for symmetry?  It would be an Atlantic proa on one tack and a Pacific proa on the other!  It is not uncommon with a mast in each hull to sail with just one of the sails in strong winds.  Pete Hill did it frequently on Oryx.

    I have been told that the trick when beam-reaching with both sails in a bi-lateral rig like  Oryx is to ease the weather sheet considerably, until it is almost feathering, which spills wind into the leeward sail.  I'd still choose this rig for a junk-rigged cat, because I like the shorter masts, but your idea of a mast in one hull is feasible.

  • 07 Sep 2019 23:04
    Reply # 7869398 on 7869048

    Has anyone tried a single mast set into one of the hulls and set up like an Atlantic Proa? I have not seen any reports of this being tried, has anyone else? This would use an unstayed mast and would have the bury and structure to make it a reasonable option. Mast sizing would have to be done based on sail area and wind pressure, and in sailing the cat extra care would be needed to make sure that the rig was not over pressed, as can easily be done on a catamaran with its large initial stability. The sheet release system proposed by Arne could be the answer to this.

    David.

       " ...there is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing as simply messing about in junk-rigged boats" 
                                                               - the Chinese Water Rat

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