Minimalistic cruising multihulls

<< First  < Prev   1   2   3   4   5   ...   Next >  Last >> 
  • 10 Mar 2020 02:14
    Reply # 8816050 on 6935613
    Deleted user


    This obviously won't work for us.  The closest I have come to a solution so far is to rig the sail on the opposite side of the mast to the ama.  If you are standing at the bow of the main hull when the ama is to your right, looking back at the mast, and the luff of the sail is closest to you, the crane would be pointing towards you (port and starboard have no meaning here!), or possibly even slightly offset to your left.  Need to make a model to determine where it will have the least twist on both shunts.  The chimney that the halyard and running parrel tails use is behind the mast from this perspective.  That is where the sail never goes.  When you shunt, the sail rotates around the side of the mast that is closest to you.




    I have a hard time understanding the problem here. A junk on a conventional boat can swing more than 90 degrees from the centreline (for example when going downwind on either tack). If you realise that the centreline for a proa is a line crossing the centre of both hulls from windward to leeward, and hang the sail here, then it should be able to pivot 90 degrees to either side.


    I must admit my experience is limited, so perhaps I am missing something obvious.

     

  • 24 Dec 2019 15:32
    Reply # 8375777 on 8361296
    Deleted user
    Anonymous wrote:

    Well, you have got to decide what you want in a boat. The Miss Cindy voyage, and Roger Taylor, and many other micro-cruisers have demonstrated that you do not need a lot of boat to have a significant adventure. The Miss Cindy story inspired my own choice of the catamaran I am currently building - the Eco 6. As I now have the hulls joined together and have begun work on the cabin structure, I am beginning to appreciate how roomy the boat is for 6 meters, and also how small it is compared to the boats I am used to. I am also very conscious of how little weight I have to play with, which is making me very careful about how much weight I build into the boat. But overall I have come to realise that this will be a 'backpacking' kind of boat compared to the ocean going holiday 'cottages' I have been used to in the past. This will dictate my choice of interior fit-out including a backpacking technology approach for the galley, except I am going to have an electric fridge to keep the tonic water and white wine chilled!

    This boat may not be right for me long term, but I am prepared to give it a try. 


     I strongly agree about deciding what you want............ My interests and those of many others are quite different.  I'm looking at along term onboard lifestyle, not brief or extended "adventure" with interludes of "normal" life.   More on the  order of wandering the world's more remote areas in a leisurely low key ongoing "adventure" of a number of years with no specific goal or timetable such as circumnavigation.   Probably solo most of the time.   With that in mind, a junk rigged multihull is pretty much a no-brainer.   The fly in the soup is payload naturally.   How many months supplies can I carry, and in addition I want significant maintenance ability so that I'm rarely dependent on shoreside services.  That all adds up to weight, especially the latter.  The challenge  is not only choosing the right boat, but outfitting it with  the necessary items so I can maintain it and repair it, without simply piling on weight.   I've found over the years that I can do a LOT with minimal stuff, but choosing the right set of tools to be capable but light is a real challenge.

          To get what I really want, I would need to build it.......... But clearly at least for me, the build would consume too much time when I'd rather be sailing, and at my age, there is a fair chance that it would end up being another "white elephant" for sale partially done..... If I'm realistic about things.


                                                                         H.W.

  • 23 Dec 2019 05:29
    Reply # 8361296 on 8356039
    Deleted user
    Howard wrote:

    This discussion  has produced some interesting stuff...... I'm currently about half way through Travels With Miss Cindy.....suggested by an early poster, and enjoyed reading the piece on stepped planing hulls.    What has always been a problem for myself and others is priorities.   Designers design with a set of priorities for a broad market, of which the vast majority are weekenders and thrill seekers.  Performance tends to trump (sorry about  using that word ;-)....all other parameters.  For example when I look at small catamarans in the size range that  interests me, payloads tend to be 900kg or less.   As payload includes EVERYTHING but the bare hulls and bridge deck & cabin, what on the face of it might sound like a lot of capacity evaporates rapidly........It seems that many folks are math challenged ;-)... everything in the head and galley, all the safety equipment, dinghy, human cargo and their personal items and clothing, and the food and water for them, fuel and tanks or containers, for cooking and propulsion, engines, electronics and batteries, ground tackle, books and charts.... it all adds up very rapidly if you look at things honestly. And they don't tolerate overloading well.

              I'm not getting any younger, and comfort means more to me than it once did.  I want to be able to retreat to a safe dry space where I can see, and possibly even con the boat if need be, like Roger Taylor's Ming Ming II.   The large amount of deck space on a cat appeals to me, as does the virtual lack of heel, and elimination of the metronomic rolling that gets so tiresome on a long downwind leg, or at anchor.   I don't see a good reason in this day and age to live on you ear or put up with unnecessary motion in addition to the natural motion of the wind and waves.

         I'm long past the age of proving myself to people...... "real sailors" it seems must revel in discomfort   ;-)


                                                                      H.W.


    Well, you have got to decide what you want in a boat. The Miss Cindy voyage, and Roger Taylor, and many other micro-cruisers have demonstrated that you do not need a lot of boat to have a significant adventure. The Miss Cindy story inspired my own choice of the catamaran I am currently building - the Eco 6. As I now have the hulls joined together and have begun work on the cabin structure, I am beginning to appreciate how roomy the boat is for 6 meters, and also how small it is compared to the boats I am used to. I am also very conscious of how little weight I have to play with, which is making me very careful about how much weight I build into the boat. But overall I have come to realise that this will be a 'backpacking' kind of boat compared to the ocean going holiday 'cottages' I have been used to in the past. This will dictate my choice of interior fit-out including a backpacking technology approach for the galley, except I am going to have an electric fridge to keep the tonic water and white wine chilled!

    This boat may not be right for me long term, but I am prepared to give it a try. 


    Last modified: 23 Dec 2019 19:48 | Deleted user
  • 23 Dec 2019 00:57
    Reply # 8359462 on 8358865
    Deleted user
    Anonymous wrote:
    Anonymous wrote:His Aero Rig or Ballestron rig is IMHO absurd......  A  heavy mast on bearings just doesn't make sense to me, and I've often wished someone would build one with a junk rig.

    I know of two larger junk rigged proas, you might be interested in Terho Halme's Ping Pong (which is a "Harry") and then there's a Swedish tacking proa.




    Thanks!   I hadn't seen Ping Pong before.   Note the huge difference between the basic design.  The Swedish proa  has the masts on the main hull (windward) where most of the weight is, and very little to prevent capsize should the wind switch suddenly to the opposite side, while Ping Pong has the masts on the leeward hull.  Technically the Swedish boat is an Atlantic Proa, and Ping Pong is a Pacific Proa.   Ping Pong does not appear to be a Harry Proa, as the HPs are designed with a considerably longer leeward hull, and the main hull is short and fat which  is a configuration that has several advantages.


    A pacific proa has the outrigger to windward, and an Atlantic to Leeward.  The first trying to fly the outrigger using it's weight to counter sail thrust / rolling moment, the second using it's flotation to counter sail thrust / rolling moment.  They are completely opposite.

                                                                       H.W.


  • 22 Dec 2019 23:28
    Reply # 8358865 on 8356039
    Anonymous wrote:His Aero Rig or Ballestron rig is IMHO absurd......  A  heavy mast on bearings just doesn't make sense to me, and I've often wished someone would build one with a junk rig.

    I know of two larger junk rigged proas, you might be interested in Terho Halme's Ping Pong (which is a "Harry") and then there's a Swedish tacking proa.


  • 22 Dec 2019 16:56
    Reply # 8356039 on 6886625
    Deleted user

    This discussion  has produced some interesting stuff...... I'm currently about half way through Travels With Miss Cindy.....suggested by an early poster, and enjoyed reading the piece on stepped planing hulls.    What has always been a problem for myself and others is priorities.   Designers design with a set of priorities for a broad market, of which the vast majority are weekenders and thrill seekers.  Performance tends to trump (sorry about  using that word ;-)....all other parameters.  For example when I look at small catamarans in the size range that  interests me, payloads tend to be 900kg or less.   As payload includes EVERYTHING but the bare hulls and bridge deck & cabin, what on the face of it might sound like a lot of capacity evaporates rapidly........It seems that many folks are math challenged ;-)... everything in the head and galley, all the safety equipment, dinghy, human cargo and their personal items and clothing, and the food and water for them, fuel and tanks or containers, for cooking and propulsion, engines, electronics and batteries, ground tackle, books and charts.... it all adds up very rapidly if you look at things honestly. And they don't tolerate overloading well.

         The ECO 7.5 that was discussed earlier seems to me one of the best choices for a fairly minimal but not too minimal small cat for short distance cruising.   It's 634 kg payload is a figure someone can work within.  At only 42% of the empty weight of the KD 860, it has 53% of the payload.  It's rather amazing that with only 15% more length, the weight increases 42%, but it increases in all dimensions, with another meter of beam.  


          I don't see proas as practical cruisers until you get pretty large.  I rather like Rob Denny's Harry Proa series for it's innovations.   When the sizes are small, the interior spaces are pretty poor, but the deck spaces are generous.......so they are really adapted to places where outdoor living is the norm, or for folks that sail only in nice weather.  His Aero Rig or Ballestron rig is IMHO absurd......  A  heavy mast on bearings just doesn't make sense to me, and I've often wished someone would build one with a junk rig.  I also like his fore and aft retractable kick up rudders mounted inboard.   It seems to me that this could whip helm balance issues, using the forward rudder in a fixed trimmed position in lieu of a dagger board.  

         I'm not getting any younger, and comfort means more to me than it once did.  I want to be able to retreat to a safe dry space where I can see, and possibly even con the boat if need be, like Roger Taylor's Ming Ming II.   The large amount of deck space on a cat appeals to me, as does the virtual lack of heel, and elimination of the metronomic rolling that gets so tiresome on a long downwind leg, or at anchor.   I don't see a good reason in this day and age to live on you ear or put up with unnecessary motion in addition to the natural motion of the wind and waves.

         I'm long past the age of proving myself to people...... "real sailors" it seems must revel in discomfort   ;-)


                                                                      H.W.


  • 20 Dec 2019 21:36
    Reply # 8340439 on 8329843
    Deleted user
    Anonymous wrote:

    I think I would actually prefer to try to design a stayed (junk) rig for a proa, to keep everything as light as possible. Makes sense to have stays go out to the ama, sharing some of the load with the crossbeams. Also, having the mast positioned slightly to weather (like Russ Brown's designs) you have enough space to put a stay to both ends of the vaka, acting as safeguards for if/when caught aback. This shouldn't interfere too much with the sail's operation, like it would on a monohull.

    Just my two cents and nothing from an engineering perspective aside from armchair speculation.

    The JRA member Rael Dobkins has built and sailed an una Junk that uses stays, a shroud and a rotating bipod mast.It is a rig that i could see myself using on my proa Pahi iti, since I think that a double sheet system (one for each lee hull end) could augment rig support in the way of a combination sheet/running backstay system. This means modifying the design as used by Rael and would need some experimental or developmental work to prove feasability.

    Reason why I baulk at moving on this idea is that sail area is too small for a canoe with a short rig. Proa options for a  taller rig with better windward performance are slim, if not limited to to the Bermudan sloop slutter or cutter. Split freestanding rig looks to be the default option unless going with the retro SO Pahi rig. 


  • 20 Dec 2019 17:20
    Reply # 8338429 on 6886625

    Happened to stumble upon this article today: https://www.proboat.com/2019/12/take-a-free-copy/

    "Along with the sailboarders, we reached back and forth to enjoy the thrill of speed, and sailed as fast as the best of the boards, both of us at about 30 mph, twice as fast as I’d ever gone under sail."

    Whoa.

    "Indeed, I’ve written this article to urge folks to “steal” and further develop this design of a stepped-hull sailing catamaran, which will easily out-sail anything but a hydrofoil boat and is cheap and easy to sail."


    Last modified: 20 Dec 2019 17:23 | Anonymous member
  • 20 Dec 2019 09:04
    Reply # 8335088 on 8329726
    Jeremy Walker wrote:

    Speaking of Russel Brown, his choice of rig has decidedly much to do with stays and a shroud or the Bermudan/Marconi configuration in essence, although I did  happen to see a pic of the proa Cheers displayed inside the cabin of Jzerro ( this when invited to take a peek below decks on one occasion)... so it could be that he hasan appreciation of unstayed rigs. 

    Cheers was the seminal influence for Russell.  He was 13, cruising South America aboard his parents' Searunner trimaran, Scrimshaw, when Dick Newick sent them a copy of Project Cheers, the book he co-wrote about the Atlantic proa, Cheers,   It set Russell's adolescent imagination alight and he was soon sailing his first, lashed-up, proa around the anchorage.  This was followed at 17 by the 30ft Jzero, then later by the larger proas, Kauri and Jzerro, all of which he voyaged in extensively.   Russell chose the Pacific proa because he like the lighter structural loads, and he chose a stayed bermudian rig because he likes to sail fast to windward, even when he is not racing.  He is on record as saying an unstayed cat ketch rig, especially with wishbone booms, has a lot of appeal for pure cruising, though I doubt he would consider junk rig.  Cheers has a special place in his heart.
  • 19 Dec 2019 19:55
    Reply # 8329843 on 6886625

    I think I would actually prefer to try to design a stayed (junk) rig for a proa, to keep everything as light as possible. Makes sense to have stays go out to the ama, sharing some of the load with the crossbeams. Also, having the mast positioned slightly to weather (like Russ Brown's designs) you have enough space to put a stay to both ends of the vaka, acting as safeguards for if/when caught aback. This shouldn't interfere too much with the sail's operation, like it would on a monohull.

    Just my two cents and nothing from an engineering perspective aside from armchair speculation.

<< First  < Prev   1   2   3   4   5   ...   Next >  Last >> 
       " ...there is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing as simply messing about in junk-rigged boats" 
                                                               - the Chinese Water Rat

                                                              Site contents © the Junk Rig Association and/or individual authors

Powered by Wild Apricot Membership Software