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The "LaShunk", A shunting junk, by Balkan ShipYards.

  • 24 Jun 2018 18:35
    Quote
    Reply # 6338132 on 6315328
    Deleted user

    so will you stick with the crabclaw? or are you still looking at the junk rig?

    I haven't tried the crabclaw yet, it's a beautiful, versatile rig, but it looks like a lot of work and a lot of opportunities for things to go wrong when singlehanding, add that to it being really unhandy to reef and heavy and it's a no go for me.


    I think this paragraph was what decided my against the crabclaw:

    "It started out life with the oceanic lateen shunting rig. A beautiful, fun rig to sail. I decided to try another rig in a powerful afternoon wind on a mountain lake. While shunting in high winds, the sail with both 20 foot spars would kite high into the air, occasionally swooping in to snap off an unsuspecting cleat or body part. At that moment a pair of smaller, reefable sails sounded more manageable. "


    Have you tried the gibbons or dierking shunting riggs yet?


    I like the bermudan rig about half as much as you do :) I think the reason it's considered the "Best" by so many is that it makes more money for those who sponsor races than any other type of rig, and those who lay out racecourses know it. 


    I wonder if having a junk rig at each end of as proa and just reef the aft rig by how ever much is necessary to get the ballance one wants would work.


    After trying the junk rig I can't see using anything else, having a bit of extra weight and larger appendages is a very small price to pay for the added safety and ease of handling


    Bill
  • 23 Jun 2018 22:23
    Quote
    Reply # 6336607 on 6315328
    Anonymous member

    Hi Bill,I too have a daggerboard in my ama, it really helps me go to windward.

    I constantly adjust it's depth and it it's trim is very important for the boat to hold course. The minute you push it down the boat will go only to windward, full stop. half way reaching easy and up is for running. Still my CE was a bit to far aft, due to the fixed mast and a big crab claw. Canting masts are better for proas, I just thought they were a hassle and I could get by with out them.... I was wrong, so a steering oar was usually needed....

    Russel is a racer, so Bermuda rigs are for him. I had a Bermuda on a mono, but I wouldn't have one on a proa, dropping and raising jibs after every shunt seems too crazy to me.... 

    I also don't like the high tech and high price that come with the Bermuda rig.........

    The high stress, the extra complication, the need to have more sails, like Spinnakers and storm sails....... I just don't like it.......

    Cruising is Cruising, Racing is racing. Thank god they don't mix!

    All d best, man.

    Keep shunting, Balkan ShipYards.

    Rael.
  • 23 Jun 2018 15:11
    Quote
    Reply # 6335059 on 6315328
    Deleted user
    always good to see another proa enthusiast looking at the junk rig :) I hear you on the trolls thing, not sure what it is about proas that offends some folks but it seems to be a thing...

    One thing I thought was interesting about a junk rig on a proa is that it could be fully stayed without interfering with the rig unless one wants to be able to tack as well as shunt.

    Russell Brown uses daggerboards with trim tabs on his center mast proas, a nice design that lets him change both his CLR to balance his boat on either shunt and rudders as well

    one could use a sliding leeboard on the ama, the one I'm working on will move about 8 feet on a 16' boat, I should be able to do most of my steering with it if I set it up right. Traditionally the crew would jam their paddles into the water like leeboards to steer.

     Here's a proa that's a double dipper :) with a sliding leeboard. double dipping lug wa'apa

     it would also reduce loads on the rudders which is huge on a proa as it's pretty tough to put rudders out on the ends of the proa where they do the most good because they'd take a beating when on the "Bow" in rough weather.


    I'll certainly be following with interest, I'm planning on designing/building a 9m proa in the near future.


    Bill
  • 21 Jun 2018 04:30
    Quote
    Reply # 6328336 on 6315328
    Anonymous member

    Mark, 

    I agree that a single sail at mid ship with big enough rudders will work.

    But I honestly believe that it's just "solving a problem with a new one"....

    Since proas are fine and narrow, most of them will dig their bows in, resulting in CLR being far forward. It may go even to 25% of waterline from the bow. That's very far ahead. Now imagine how big, or how deep a rudder must be to bring CLR half your waterline back.... A mainsail on a mast at mid ship will have a CE about 75% aft of the bow.

    So? ether a huge rudder, or a deep one....... If not, using a boat that is so unbalanced is going to be very hard work, as the sailor will be fighting heavy weather helm. Adding deep rudders onto a cruising multihull also isn't the best idea in my opinion. One of the biggest advantages with multihulls is, that they can arrive last, but still choose the best achorage!!!! Shallow draft is a huge advantage for ANY cruising vessel.

    It works, I know! But big appendages must be installed to move the CLR so far.

    You end up by adding weight, complication, wetted area, and the vessel draws more. 

    I think just put the rig where it should be and solve the real problem without creating new ones..........

    That's my two cents on that matter.  

    By the way I never expected finding a proa brother here!!!!

    All d best.

    rael.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
  • 20 Jun 2018 06:52
    Quote
    Reply # 6324414 on 6315328
    Anonymous member

    Hi Arne, well it's like this......

    Proas are as brilliant as Junk Rigs are! I just came up with that and I like it....

    The longest vessel that can be built out of any pile of materials is a Pacific Proa. Meaning with an "x" amount of material the most boat, with the longest water line anyone could build, would be nothing but a proa. 

    This is a huge advantage, for an Islander if there's no machines and trucks..... Or an advantage for us, just because prices of materials seem to go only one way, and that's up...........

    Proas are the fastest! 

    A Proa built for speed is a flying proa, he lifts the ama (The small hull) till the ama is just skimming the surface, and he flies away. Nothing can match him, for wetted area is reduced to nothing. Many think that proas sail flying their amas, this was true only for the smallest ones, those were built for fishing in the atoll, but the bigger ones, once in trim were skimming their amas just above the water.   

    The small ama also reduces the loads on the vessel. A catamaran with 2 big hulls will put much more loads onto it's akas (the beams that connect the hulls), but a small sharp hull can go through waves without rising or falling much, the motion is calmer and loads are reduced.

    Proas are strong!

    All multihulls when heeling put very serious compression loads on their akas. These beams must be very strong. So you can choose, cheap and heavy, or, very expensive and not so heavy..... On a Proa the akas are very lightly loaded, The mast is on the Vaka (big hull) there is a single shroud that goes from mast head to ama. so the akas only keep the hulls apart, and are a base for a big deck. But they have zero compression loads compared  to cats and tris. Meaning that aka construction for a proa can be cheap, simple and lightweight.

    Proas are easier to transport.

    This video proves it well..... https://youtu.be/3osZ2fm18U8

    Proas are easier to beach.

    Proas go better to windward. 

    Proas in heavy weather, will safely drift back laying to a para anchor without breaking their rudders. The wide platform will not capsize if all sail is down and bow is held to weather with a para anchor.

    Proas are brilliant! so why don't we see more??

    Well, we are working on that........

    Thanx for pushing me.....

    Good job.

    Rael.

    Balkan ShipYards. 
  • 19 Jun 2018 13:50
    Quote
    Reply # 6320726 on 6315328
    Anonymous member

    Rael,

    Another proa-junk enthusiast- great.

    I had a wee 16' proa, rigged with a windsurfer sail, it was a deep V hull.  Lots of very wet fun!!  Yes, the sail had to be over the bow, this is due to the hull shape and lack of any resistance from boards.  If you fit a good sized rudder-board, as 'Cheers' balance on a centre mast is no problem.  Jzerro will sail on main only.  The only reason for going deep V is if sailing in very shallow waters - then you will have to suffer the complications of moving the rig forward on each shunt.

    Junk sails on proas have been done, Ping-Pong looks the best.

    http://wikiproa.pbworks.com/w/page/14592535/Terho%20Halme%27s%20%22Ping-Pong%22

    I agree that traditional proas are superb craft, though they had to work within the limits of the technology they had, sailed with a large crew and in warm waters - we can now have more practical solutions for our needs.
  • 18 Jun 2018 12:05
    Quote
    Reply # 6318129 on 6315328
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Rael,

    apart from the crazy satisfaction of making a shunting proa work, what is the practical advantage of it over to a catamaran of similar size?

    The Tiki 21 that I recently sailed was quite straightforward to handle, it could easily take 3-4 people, and it was far from slow. Moreover, that boat would not be difficult to fit with any rig, including a JR.

    Is the cat simply too little of a challenge?

    Arne
  • 18 Jun 2018 03:07
    Quote
    Reply # 6317658 on 6315328
    Anonymous member

    Why are JUNK RIGS so amazing!!!!

    The vid below is what I really feel about junks, and why I feel they are the future for pacific proas. I just hope I can get it almost right first time........

    Oh share it please, it may be of use to others.

    Thanks guys

    https://youtu.be/AuqsawWGRcQ

    Keep Shunting, Balkan ShipYards.


    Last modified: 18 Jun 2018 03:09 | Anonymous member
  • 18 Jun 2018 02:51
    Quote
    Reply # 6317653 on 6315328
    Anonymous member

    David, No one ever got a Bolger to work.

    The idea is novel, but wind aint stupid.... It has no fixed to the boat proper leading edge. Junks don't ether, but their mast is not far behind, and after it there's much much more sail then there is before it.

    The Bolger has no stiff edge, nothing, just a bunch of battens stitched to a huge cloth. so the wind could buckle it inwards also and kinda invert the whole thing and slam it against the mast....

    No one has successfully gone out with it TWICE and lived to tell the tale.....


    Arne, Thanks for sparing me the time and looking into it, you found no flaws for now.

    We keep on...... A multihull must reef fast'n'easy or else things break, otherwise before u know it your rig has become your keel......

    For a proa easy reefing is even more important just because the rig is to one side, not in the middle like on a cat. so stowing sails in rough weather could end up, in you going for an unexpected swim...... 

    Guys I just have a good feeling, about it.

    Thanx. 

    all d best.

    rael 

    Last modified: 18 Jun 2018 03:02 | Anonymous member
  • 17 Jun 2018 08:49
    Quote
    Reply # 6316779 on 6315328
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Rael,

    Sorry I could not help you. However, it seems you have cracked the code with the rudderlesss proa, yourself, and need no help. It appears to me that the crab claw and triangular rigs lets one shift the CE much farther than your modified JR (model) would let you.

    The big advantage with the JR is that it can be operated (and reefed) simply by pulling strings from one position. No need for man-handling the sail or any standing rigging. Radical shifting of the CE, as needed for shunting a proa, is simply not on the menue of the JR.

    Good luck, and have fun!

    Arne

    ( PS: In my area, around Stavanger, at 59°N, the proa is out of the question, since it is too cold here. We would  need wet-suits. I sailed a Tiki 21 catamaran for the first time, this week. Big fun, but I was reminded that such craft were developed for sailing in warmer climates... )


    Last modified: 17 Jun 2018 10:04 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
       " ...there is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing as simply messing about in junk-rigged boats" 
                                                               - the Chinese Water Rat

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